On rerolls, Hidden Power, and the sheer ridiculousness of the current system

[Iceflake]

I do think the whole RR system does need something, its just hard to determine what.  Any change could have a big impact to the economy.  As RRs been a staple payment option for most of all people for such a long time.

A option that comes to me to start is a Boss that after a 3rd win (or 2nd win) gives a "Blessing" upon a specific mythical / legendary Pokemon.  This blessing will be used up when trying to RR the Pokemon.  This blessing can either be used for a higher chance at getting the same hidden power that your pokemon currently has Or can be used to have a increase iv ratio.  This will keep RR's at a steady price i think while giving players something to grind to help get a usable legendary/mythical.  The only downsides are Time it takes to get and blessings are tied to Your own pokemon to not make it a tradable item.

Just an idea but not a full fledged fix.  Still the RR system needs something but finding that something is the hardest part.
+1 to any idea that could fix this system.

[Idkup]

26 minutes ago, Ghabra said:

 

I hate to disagree here but rerolls , as any other item in the game are based on supply and demand. Reroll tickets are always in demand and that is why their price never plummeted. Yes their base price is based on their scarcity,  but  at worst,  their price never drops below 700k  which is 93% of the original price , and their price at their peak is around 800k which is 106% of the original price , this is why most people will hoard their reroll tickets until a new legendary drops . This shows that reroll tickets are always in demand.

 

Let's take another item as an example which is masterballs, their base price is around 50k. Masterballs are only in demand when a new legendary drops. When they are , their price goes up to 60k. 55k and below is considered cheap. But outside of when a new legendary drops , their price is around 40k , and i've even seen people even drop to 35k and 30k . That's a 20% increase in price at their peak and a whopping 40% drop in price at their lowest. This goes to show how important supply and demand are in pro, and that's for a very common item like masterballs.  I know comparing masterballs and reroll tickets might not be the best example here but this is the best comparison i came up with at the moment. 

 

If everyone can guarantee a decent / playable legendary at a fixed price , the demand will certainly decrease , just like with masterballs when no one needs them anymore . At first the prices might stay the same or increase a bit . But with time , a year or two from now, everyone will have usable legendaries and reroll tickets will not be as in demand anymore. This occurence will certainly lower their price and have a long term impact on the game economy . Again , i do not know if this effect will be a good or a positive one , we can only hope.

 

 

So:

- Rerolls are currently always in demand, because "elite" players want "epic" legendaries.

- Rerolls will remain always in demand if it is reasonable to obtain decent legendaries. Instead of the ultra-rich spending 844 rerolls on an HP Ice Thundurus that may or may not appear, more average players will spend 10 or 20 rerolls to obtain playable legendaries, which is something that is currently out of their reach. Rich players will reroll more niche legendaries for experimentation - think of all the Kyurem and Moltres rotting in players' boxes right now. Are they bad Pokemon? Not necessarily, but the current system makes it more or less impossible to justify spending rerolls improving their stats. More reasonable numbers will only increase demand, not reduce it.

[Mcschitter]

Yeah the system is just nonsense considering as a former staff I just get a perfect legendary with the hidden power of my choice. I do not however want the game to be necessarily easier or "reliable" per se if that makes sense. I have argued while in staff many times on the need for the game to have rare (and by consequence, expensive if tradeable) items to obtain and/or grind that would allow for different options other than rerolling to work on curving your luck for a better legendary. In this vein, diversity in rewards and diversity in how rewards are obtained is in my opinion the key to solving the issue. Being able to get a rare single IV reroll and special items that can increase (or maybe even drop) an IV stat by 1 would go a loooonnnngggg ways from where we are now. Instead of every dumb boss in the game just giving money you could diversify the reward pool they have, the PvP shop could likewise allow you to drop 10 PvP coins for a chance to land one of these rewards at a low chance. 

 

I could go on this tangent for a while but it would be wasted breath. Wally did not listen when I was in staff about these sort of things and he sure does not care to listen us outside of staff unless everyone can agree on these fundamental facts. Instead, we are stuck arguing about a broken frog and making useless petitions that mean nothing all because we cannot work together for a better game. I hope your post can make a difference Idkup, I would like to be wrong instead of right about Wally's direction.

[Ghabra]

6 minutes ago, idkup said:

So:

- Rerolls are currently always in demand, because "elite" players want "epic" legendaries.

- Rerolls will remain always in demand if it is reasonable to obtain decent legendaries. Instead of the ultra-rich spending 844 rerolls on an HP Ice Thundurus that may or may not appear, more average players will spend 10 or 20 rerolls to obtain playable legendaries, which is something that is currently out of their reach. Rich players will reroll more niche legendaries for experimentation - think of all the Kyurem and Moltres rotting in players' boxes right now. Are they bad Pokemon? Not necessarily, but the current system makes it more or less impossible to justify spending rerolls improving their stats. More reasonable numbers will only increase demand, not reduce it.

 

Do not get me wrong , i am 100% for changing the rerolling system , it's absolute rubbish. I was just pointing out that saying  "making a change or buffing reroll tickets will not have next to no impact on their price , thus no impact on the economy" is a bit misleading in my opinion. Either way there really isn't any point in arguing any further on this since we're on the same page here . The rerolling system definitely needs a change

[Evilprotagonist]

want to add. I honestly think hidden power for legendary should be choosable. This is just like the old nature reroll which was random. Ty god they changed it so you can choose the nature you want to reroll to. I honestly think legendaries hidden power should get the same treatment here. Create a reroll who let you choose the hidden power of legens. I think this would acctualy solve alot of problems.

Some legen and sets literly depend on getting the correct hidden power. Its like playing magnezone with out hp fire... 
Examples: offensive zapdos with out hp ice= XD , deffensive lando+ hp ice beats opposite lando with out (unfair advantage), latios+hp fire for scizors which is the different btw hard counter or not, raikou with out hp ice= XD,  thundurus with out hp ice/flying= meeeehhh, 

If anyone want to argue this is to op. Then staff generated legen with chosen hidden power should not be allowed in pvp PERIOD.

eddit: to make it clear, i dont want to hate on staff generated poke in pvp, as its their deserved reward for their work in pro. But if thats allowed then i honestly can't see a counter argument for my suggestion here.

Edited May 4, 2021 by EvilProtagonist

[Fplayer27]

Im a noob can someone explain?

I dont really get the point. Atm getting a "good" legendary is almost impossible, so nobody (staff pokemons) really has one let alone all pvpable ones. So this request is basically asking for more legendary dominance in PVP? I havent PVPed much recently in PRO and started over recently, but i always found it to be more fun than say Smogons OU. 

[Envymeister]

4 hours ago, idkup said:

Much has been said about how annoying and expensive it is to reroll your legendary Pokemon. With the amount of powerful legendary Pokemon being released, this is a bigger problem than ever before. It is currently difficult to imagine a properly constructed PvP team without at least one legendary - the likes of Landorus-T, Tornadus-T, Thundurus, Manaphy, and Mega Diancie simply have no comparable huntable replacement. Because of this, I would like to present a mathematical analysis on how difficult it is to obtain a legendary that is able to function in its role - having sufficient speed to maintain its speed tier, and the correct hidden power if necessary. I will only look for average secondary stats (HP, offenses, defenses >= 15). These statistics were computed using a script that simulates rerolling a legendary over and over until it meets certain parameters. This was posted in the PvP forum as it is most relevant to PvP players.

 

First, let's consider this (admittedly subjective) list of essential legendaries:

Essential:

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- Zapdos - Premier Defog user. One of the best electric types currently available, one of the best options for stall against Pokemon like Serperior. Prefers Hidden Power Ice.

- Jirachi - Good utility scarfer with access to Healing Wish and U-turn. Also quite good as a specially defensive support - reliable Stealth Rock setter and one of the best available checks to Mega Alakazam.

- Latios - Specially offensive nuke. Best offensive answer to Keldeo in the game. Reasonable way to fit Defog without severe loss of tempo. Decent mega evolution. Sometimes runs Hidden Power Fire, though I would not recommend it.

- Latias - Latios except 20 SpA is traded for bulk and access to Healing Wish. Better user of Choice Scarf, worse user of Choice Specs, has a bit more utility as a Defog user and slightly better as a Mega evolution. Occasionally runs Hidden Power Ground as a mega, but this is not necessary.

- Manaphy - The reason Unaware Calm Mind Clefable is a thing. Sometimes runs Hidden Power Fire.

- Tornadus-Therian - Premier Defog user, premier pivot, can stallbreak - the only downside of this Pokemon is Hurricane's accuracy.

- Thundurus - This thing is extremely underrated and brings so much utility in the offense mirror. Will almost always trade 1 for 2. Prefers Hidden Power Ice.

- Landorus-Therian - Everyone knows what this thing does. Sometimes runs Hidden Power Ice.

- Keldeo - One of the most dangerous offensive threats available. Will potentially start running Hidden Power Grass or Electric in the future as more people abuse Keldtar cores leading to increased usage of Gastrodon or Jellicent.

- Diancie (Mega) - Magic Bounce is good. Powerful Rock STAB with more than 80% accuracy is good. Often runs Hidden Power Fire.

 

Niche:

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- Moltres

- Mew

- Raikou

- Entei

- Suicune

- Celebi

- Cresselia

- Kyurem

- Volcanion

 

 

Let's consider only the 10 legendaries listed as essential. Here are the speed IVs they must meet to remain in their speed tier:

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- Zapdos - Doesn't run full speed investment, so speed IV is less important.

- Jirachi - Needs 28 to outspeed Hydreigon, which is relatively rare. Realistically, wants max to tie with other Pokemon in the speed tier like Manaphy or Mega Medicham after using Trick, but is able to play the game without it. 14 to outspeed max speed Landorus-Therian is the absolute lower bound.

- Latios / Latias - Need 30 to outspeed Ninetales-Alola, which becomes a major concern if Aurora Veil usage rises. Need 28 to outrun Keldeo, which is absolutely essential.

- Manaphy - Sometimes doesn't run full speed investment. Needs speed primarily to tie with other base 100 Pokemon. Like Jirachi, needs 28 to outrun Hydreigon, but when Hydreigon is played it is typically using a Choice Scarf and not very relevant to outspeed.

- Tornadus-Therian - Needs 30 to outrun base form Alakazam, which is of dubious relevance. Needs 27 to outspeed Adamant Mega Lopunny.

- Thundurus - Needs 30 to outrun Latios, Latias, Gengar, and the rest of the base 110 cohort. Needs 28 to outrun Ninetales-Alola, and 26 to outrun Keldeo, which is certainly necessary.

- Landorus-Therian - Needs 26 to outrun Excadrill, and 30 for the rare Lucario.

- Keldeo - Needs 26 for Mega Pinsir.

- Diancie - see Latios/Latias, but 30 is doubly important as Diancie threatens to OHKO Ninetales-Alola.

 

 

Let's take a look at how many rerolls it would take to obtain bare minimum speed, reasonable secondary stats, and Hidden Power if necessary (Mean | Median # rerolls necessary in 10,000 simulations rounded to nearest integer):

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Zapdos ([ICE]; HP, Def, SpA, SpD, Spe >= 15): 285 | 199

Jirachi (HP, Atk, Def, SpD >= 15, Spe >= 28): 85 | 59

Latios/Latias (HP, Def, SpA, SpD >= 15, Spe >= 30): 171 | 117 (if only 28 speed is desired, the numbers are similar to Jirachi)

Manaphy (HP, Def, SpA, SpD, Spe >= 15): 19 | 13 (though few top-tier PvP players would use a Manaphy of this quality, it is the theoretical minimum)

Tornadus-Therian (HP, Def, SpA, SpD >= 15, Spe >= 27): 67 | 45

Thundurus ([ICE]; HP, Def, SpA, SpD >= 15, Spe >= 26): 844 | 580

Landorus-Therian (HP, Atk, Def, SpD >= 15, Spe >= 26): 56 | 39

Keldeo (HP, Def, SpA, SpD >= 15, Spe >= 26): 56 | 38 (even after 10000 simulations there is still variance! theoretically this value is the same as that for Landorus-T)

Diancie (HP, Atk, Def, SpA, SpD >= 15, Spe >= 30): 313 | 215

 

 

Sum total: 1877 mean /  1305 median reroll tickets needed for simply playable stats. Source code can be provided if anyone is interested in double-checking my work, but arithmetic will show that these numbers are reasonable. I think no one will disagree when I say this is unrealistic for the vast majority of the playerbase. Of course, the primary offender is Hidden Power, but I would consider these numbers unacceptable even without the [Ice] electrics. As frustrating as it is for players, I can't imagine it's profitable for the game, either - with these numbers most players simply won't bother rerolling, weakening the economy.

 

My best suggestion for mitigating this issue is allowing players to grind to increase their legendaries' IVs up to a maximum of 15. I'd love to hear any alternative ideas.

 

As an aside, this forum needs actual moderation. The Greninja thread was a cesspool of low-effort posts and blatant misinformation - Keita eventually closed it, but ideally we would be able to engage in productive discussion without these sorts of distractions.

 

+10000000000
Thanx for the time and for the work. Hopefully Wally will watch and read it all (doubt but will see), might change his mind about this topic. 

[Albagran]

1 hour ago, EvilProtagonist said:

want to add. I honestly think hidden power for legendary should be choosable. This is just like the old nature reroll which was random. Ty god they changed it so you can choose the nature you want to reroll to. I honestly think legendaries hidden power should get the same treatment here. Create a reroll who let you choose the hidden power of legens. I think this would acctualy solve alot of problems.

Some legen and sets literly depend on getting the correct hidden power. Its like playing magnezone with out hp fire... 
Examples: offensive zapdos with out hp ice= XD , deffensive lando+ hp ice beats opposite lando with out (unfair advantage), latios+hp fire for scizors which is the different btw hard counter or not, raikou with out hp ice= XD,  thundurus with out hp ice/flying= meeeehhh, 

If anyone want to argue this is to op. Then staff generated legen with chosen hidden power should not be allowed in pvp PERIOD.

eddit: to make it clear, i dont want to hate on staff generated poke in pvp, as its their deserved reward for their work in pro. But if thats allowed then i honestly can't see a counter argument for my suggestion here.

 

i second stated this on another thread that Legendary staff generated pokemon are too unfair in pvp considering the effort to get one as a player.

 

I have nothing against regular staff generated pokemon on the other hand.

[Cruelgreen]

As somone who spent millions to iv rerolls and got trash poke I Disagree. 

 

[Iampvp]

What u said is certainly fine but actually rerolls = economy if everyone have good legendaries whats the use of ladder tournament summer tournament and stuff? They are then useless and moreover its ur mind actually how u think abt making a team wont lie but i have only a keldeo in game and thats too way bad spd -23 and just 26 spatk with not so good defenses but that still worked great and in my first season i was without legendaries. To be honest i myself need some good legends but sadly if u just have to play perfect ivs then pro is not the platform u must move showdown i too do when i want to play perfect ivs. Just imagine no rerolls = no economy 
1st They are the fastest way of making money
2nd Not so hard to get we got solaceon quest for that and u can buy them for pvp coins 
3rd This game has two aspects pve + pvp. A pve player will do pve without any reason but a pvp players actually do that stuff just to grind some money and pve coins. Certainly if there is no need to reroll legends u dont need any money u can hunt every other mon this surely neglects pve part of this game although i dont do it myself ........
Ending the convo i say a -1