pvp rules Ranked PvP Rules.

[Zinsmiter]

290110 bisharp/weav for revenge killing or making it lose momentum and also not running to much stall.

 

what also works is, if you just have some setup pokemon with boost so even if he switches in he gets ***

 

hyper offense/bulky offense instead of stall basically and you got 0 problems with goth

 

Loss of momentum on switching because Weavile comes in is nothing for many stall teams. It doesn't have Life Orb or anything that allows it to push through. If you think that gain in momentum justifies the power Shadow Tag i think you haven't been in that situation very frequently. Swords Dance? Skarmory laughs. Scizor Bullet Punch laughs. You're not in such a good position as you claim to be.

290116 It doesnt matter how niche u think magnet pull is.

 

Well, in the same way. It doesn't matter how much you think it's not. We're not really saying anything with these "arguments" are we?

290116 Btw 10 of 49 Pokemon in the PRO viability rankings from S to A- tier have a steel typing. thats 20%. Given that a pokemons typing can consist of 2 out of 16 types niche would be something below 12,5%.

 

It's funny how you mention 10/49 as if Magnezone can just eliminate these. You think you can just switch into Bisharp without punishment? You think you can just switch into Excadril? You're really trying hard bro, but Magnezone is not as rock, paper, scissors against the entire steel type metagame as you would like to convince me.

290116 Yes Dugtrio has low stats but who cares when your 100 dmg stab move is strong against 5 types, your second move has 200 base dmg at 1 HP and is strong against 5 types (3 different types) and your prio move adds 2 other types? As long as dugtrio is outspeeding the enemy it has a chance of OHKO'ing or at least revenge killing.

Just because u arent effected by other trappers doesnt mean u can count them out. Other players may feel exactly the same way about them as u do about gohtitelle.

 

Who cares? You will care when you see how those base stats come back to bite you when you fight against most teams. OHKO? I don't think you know how weak attack it has. It can't even OHKO offensive Tyranitar, while Tyranitar can laugh at it and OHKO with.. even Stone Edge.. A resisted attack. Still not sure why you mention Dugtrio anyway and you refer to a Focus Sash build with Reversal. This is PRO. Focus Sash has been thrown in the trash by the staff by making it consumable while trying to convince players that it's farmable. So nothing of this even works. Even just switching into Stealth Rocks completely nullifies this incredibly small niche.

290116 So all u are saying is that u dont care about trapping as long as the trapper cant sweep a team like magnezone or dugtrio. And i want Gothitelle to be exactly like them. trade 1 for 1 and that's it. And u get that if the staff banns calm mind on gothitelle. And if im wrong the ban is still an option. But if the ban is the first action taken a nerf isnt an option anymore and we already lack content.

 

You try to conclude my entire opinion with these lines but no.. No, that's not what i'm saying. I didn't say i didn't care about trapping.. It's just less of a problem. And not this sweep whole team thing again.. I already explained that this was not the case in my example before..

[Shewas18]

289338

289062 Sure, if they ban Shadow Tag as well.

 

255430 Ban Gothitelle Shadow Tag can be a good idea no ? it's so annoying and it's ban in "Official pokemon pvp" no ?

 

247939 For Gothitelle, it is a bit different. Its stats are average and it is really slow. But it has no counter. Let me remind that a counter is a pokemon which is able to switch on the pokemon, stomach at least one attack on the switch-in and retaliate by killing it or forcing it out. For example, Weavile is not a counter to Garchomp since it cannot switch on its Earthquake or Outrage. It's only a revenge killer or, at best, a check to Chomp.

 

Since shadow tag prevent you from switching, well... you cannot counter it and it demolishs stall teams by getting +6 with Calm mind and before ripping the team appart. Personnaly, i hate stalls team, i truly do. It annoys me to no end everytime i have an 1 hour battle full of roost/defog/heal beal/etc... so i should be happy that Goth can deter people from using stall. Of course, Goth is not that strong against offense/hyper-offense team. But objectively, a pokemon which is powerful enough to deny an entire playstyle (stall) should be suspected, just as smogon did.

 

245794 So can we finally ban gothitelle? Yes its beatable, so is megagengar with the right counter, still its consider as uber. The point isnt if its beatable or not, the question is by how many pokes in the metagame it can be stopped. Fact is gothitelle has an extra easy set up due shadow tag, cause shadow tag itself is broken, not gothitelle. It cant be the point that you have to build your whole team around one pokemon, otherwise it can easily sweep your whole team without any skill involved. And yeah i know there gonna be some butthurt comments of kids abusing this [Censored] atm for some easy rating, still whoever really put effort into considering why this thing is broken should know by now why it is banworthy.

 

200899

 

 

It is banned in regular Pokemon rules

 

200777 Shadow Tag really should be banned as well ;)

 

288906 Why Gothielle Shadow Tag is not banned ? that pokemon is practicly an auto-win button...

 

288179 Here is my list of 'baneable pokes/items' present or future:

.- Protean Greninja

.- Shadow Tag

 

219448 Please ban Pokemon with Shadow Tag ability, thanks.

(Gothita, Shadowtag)

Also, can UBERS be banned too.

 

216404 I don't undertand, why shadow tag still isn't banned, this ability havent any counterplay, maybe if you use mega evolutions and legendary pokemons, but already you can use h.a gothita and killing enemy pokemons winought any consequences. You kill one pokemon, next make switch and wait for another pokemon easy to kill and another...

 

207652 Well I think the most scary mon is shadow tag cause no team pre view you'll never see it coming impossible to play around

 

205838 The problem with shadow tag is that you can't play around it unless you know who is using it. I myself am keeping list of players that use it so when I face them I have a plan. Without team preview shadow tag is even stronger than usual. I've never lost to shadow tag yet and once I know who uses it its even easier. But I do agree that a very skilled player would have big advantage.

 

205829 Shadow tag is game breaking.

Gothitelle destroy balance and stall team.

 

If u don't have physical attaker who can hit super efficiency with stab u have loose. And if u have one, Gothitelle can switch out (after he realized a kill of course ) (and pursuit isn’t code yet ) and switch in later in the game for trap and kill an other pokemon.

 

Ok gothitelle will destroy all the defensive pokemon, after this we will see only hyper offense team, this is not bad things but this is not the solution.

And as I can read previously, if someone spends time to hunt a pokemon or a teams to finally realized that gothitelle destroy all his team, this can be really frustrating and game breaking.

 

This game need to be balance, stall, balance and offense teams need to have a place in the meta.

Gothitelle destroy 2 of them, that is why it must be banned.

 

Slowbro and Blissey are very annoying but dont reduce the meta. A good built team can destroy them.

The meta is actually annoying because most players do not try to counter Slowbro and Blissey, but prefer play easy in using them in their team. But as I say previously its easy to counter these two pokemon, for example Breloom can perfectly conter both. However I can say that I see very little Brellom which is really strange seen that meta is full of Slowbro and Blissey.

 

205690 If you have some time to read why shadow tag is broken : https://www.smogon.com/articles/ou-suspect-sableye-shadow-tag

 

I can't quotes everyone's comments about Shadow Tag, because its just too much, you can search it on search bar about Shadow Tag and Gothitelle being banned, i found more than 100 post about that. You can check that here: https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/search.php?keywords=shadow+tag&t=33054&sf=msgonly and https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/search.php?keywords=shadow+tag&t=34240&sf=msgonly. Hopefully all quotes above is enough to make Shadow Tag banned from Ladder PvP.

In my opinion, Shadow Tag should be banned, its not all about how many counters or weakness that this Pokemon has, because we battle not only using 1 vs 1 Pokemon, we battle with 6 vs 6 Pokemon, so this Pokemon weakness can be covered with other Pokemon, so yeah, dont talk about counters because every Pokemon has their own weakness.

I will sum up in here why Shadow Tag should be banned because:

1. This game lack of team preview. We don't have team preview which is making this Pokemon being unpredictable and yes this can give this Pokemon free win almost againts all spatck/ balance/ stall Pokemon.

2. Since shadow tag prevent you from switching, well.. you cannot counter it and it demolish stall teams by getting +6 with Calm mind and before ripping the team apart.

3. We don't have complete items, abilities, movesets also Pokemon yet. E.g. pursuit/ life orb/ etc, so hard to one-KO this Pokemon.

4. Popular Pokemon Battle Simulator, Showdown, has their reason to ban this Pokemon, you can check it here: https://www.smogon.com/articles/ou-suspect-sableye-shadow-tag.

5. Its just not fun spamming calm mind and rest, repeat it over and over again to buff and other side cant do anything about this, with more than 10-20 turns to set this buff.

6. PvP become not competitive anymore because we allowed this broken ability in ladder

7. Its not about banning Shadow Tag can change the meta of the game or systems or other reason, hopefully ladder tier is coming soon, so everyone who already has this Pokemon not becoming useless because they still can use this Pokemon in Uber tier.

 

Anyways, this is just my opinion and reason about this ability. I'm sorry if i said something wrong, just wanna make PvP environment become competitive. Thank you ^^

 

GW deserves a ban as much as goth btw , just saying .(this thing is pressuring pro meta a wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy more than goth, since the meta is in this state kind of because of it) , and i don't have to point out ratio of talonflamme/goth you can actually see in ranked laddering . It's actually easier to whine about a "broken" abillity wich is kind of easy to understand and "lacking" counterplay because it's hiddering a playstyle on his own (well a playstyle really badly played in pro ) than reading beetwin lines and how & why the meta is in this state (yeah preview, lacking item, moove/talent blabla ). Yeah trust me or not, ban GW and you'r going to see a way less of bad stall/semi stall running around . So far if you take the top 25 ladderboard (don't focus on it, its actually meaningless , not representative at all from my pov )You either face balanced(there no bulky-o in pro ,and balanced is far superior with the lack of incredible powerhouse mega are)or h.o with talon being runned in almost every team or either stall/semi stall ;(yeah for semi stall 5tank/wall with a talon ,how weird it is :Shy: ) Let's explain that with some arrows ,

offense team <Talonflamme<bulky water/ground,(ttar sin't really checking it in pro aka not coded pursuit)<atq.spe user<BLISSEY <Goth tried my best to explain that to 20 I.Q ppl

[Guest LiquidSnakeK]

From what I've gathered, and I mean no offense by this, (And I'm not top pvp ladder player for 19 years or what have you) but it seems like the players complaining about shadow tag and gale wings talonflame don't understand the Pokemon metagame very well. YES, granted Shadow tag is banned in Showdown, its also banned in other Competitive Pokemon tournies as well. To which point I'm not sure exactly why. Smogon's answer is that its a cancerous ability and being able to switch out of a bad match-up is a fundamental part of the game.

 

The difference between PRO and all these other communities is that we aren't locked to only one specific tier. Such as OU or UBER etc. So their rules shouldn't apply to use here at PRO. What I'm seeing is that the majority of people are running stall teams, and as a result are getting hard countered by pokemon such as gothitelle... obviously you are going to lose the game if you don't have a reliable counter.

 

The problem in PRO is that with a SEVERE lack of OFFENSIVELY oriented pvp items its very difficult to deal with the physical walls that are currently available for use. If you think about it, the only real special walls that are run are calm mind users like goth, blissey ofc, and then maybe a careful nature snorlax. Other than these, what other special walls do you even see as often?

 

I don't even get the argument about banning Gale Wings. It makes no sense at all. With the heavy amount of phys walls in the game if you can't wall a talonflame you are doing something wrong. Period. It has mediocre damage when you compare it to other flying types such as Staraptor. The only thing it has going for it is priority.. and the only other offensive move it can use reliably is flare blitz. That's not a lot of type coverage. Its easy to wall. Slowbro is the most common answer, and easiest one to obtain.

 

All in all it just seems like there is a majority of players who misunderstand the metagame. A lack of experience is a heavy contributor to this.

[Beittler]

these bannable abilities can be used for a boss fight?

[Guest LiquidSnakeK]

290364 these bannable abilities can be used for a boss fight?

This thread is in reference to ranked pvp. Not pve

[Teemoking]

becuz stallers like to have a GW talon in their team, ofc they would say: oh.. how stupid ppl complain about GW, it's way easy to counter it by slowbro, tyranitar or

 

steath rock and so on.

 

but they just complain about "shadow tag" gothitelle while other non-stall team players not complain much about it

 

it's sooo funny, isn't it ??

 

ofc i know stall team can easily wall GW talonflame, but not everyone's play style is stall

 

likewise shadow tag gothitelle :kiss:

 

every time ppl got rekt by shadow tag then they go to post "why shadow tag not banned ?? or shadow tag is an auto/free win " on forum, it's so funny

[Guest LiquidSnakeK]

every time ppl got rekt by shadow tag then they go to post "why shadow tag not banned ?? or shadow tag is an auto/free win " on forum, it's so funny

Same can be said about talonflame. Everytime someone gets rekt by talonflame they immediately come here and start complaining that it should be banned. Its getting old. :Sleeping:

[Shewas18]

The problem in PRO is that with a SEVERE lack of OFFENSIVELY oriented pvp items its very difficult to deal with the physical walls that are currently available for use. If you think about it, the only real special walls that are run are calm mind users like goth, blissey ofc, and then maybe a careful nature snorlax. Other than these, what other special walls do you even see as often?

1: Not that hard , if people would put their mouse pointer lower than the OU tier in SD , thing might change, but yeah why would they do that when ttar/t-flame/weavile/chomp/nite are brainless to use and totally mainstream/overhyped (Also dunno if people know about the TM Called Taunt) . Same for special walls , eviolite not working , choice goes to blissey , for ppl needing a win con or something with some offensif capibillity they goes for snorlax because it's brainless to use as well . There actually few special wall in the game wich are dealing with some physical mon the others two are struggling with (specially machamp)

290353 I don't even get the argument about banning Gale Wings. It makes no sense at all. With the heavy amount of phys walls in the game if you can't wall a talonflame you are doing something wrong.

290324 offense team <Talonflamme<bulky water/ground,(ttar sin't really checking it in pro aka not coded pursuit)<atq.spe user<BLISSEY <Goth tried my best to explain that to 20 I.Q ppl

Isn't your argument answering why its making sense ? Raptor doesn't carry a priority moove hitting harder than arceus's ES ,it doesn't pressure offensiv team as talon does w/o a scarf ,it doesn't get burned , i'll give you a secret there , mon aren't banned if and only if they doesn't carry counter play to them , you'r so much in the wrong right there (yeah the answer is because it's too much toxic/pressuring the meta/or the counter play is actually very small) , Everything is checked by something by diffrents ways ,The best answer to it so far i have found in pro is putting enough pressure to keep sr up, and E.S it (without having to run slowbro/hippo , yeah ttar and donphan arn't going to win the hit&back war )

290353 Slowbro is the most common answer, and easiest one to obtain.

Yeah , you are forced to run something wich stomacks his stabb mooves , +2 acro/bb or either flareblitz will 6-0everything lacking that kind of mon ,

290353 and the only other offensive move it can use reliably is flare blitz. That's not a lot of type coverage. Its easy to wall. Slowbro is the most common answer, and easiest one to obtain.

and also why does it needs coverage when he got acces to two of best stabbed moove in the whole game ,for information Fire&Fly being really goood offensif pair , only rocks is resisting the combination of two (not going to mention heatran and rotom-w ..) ,you don't need coverage when you are hitting with 110-120bp neutral moove+stabb(and sharpbeak smtimes) (yeah ima say smthing for all thoose player hiddenpower fire-ing my meta with their zone is bs, t-bolt deals more , free advice ) ,Yes it's easily checked , but definitly not easy to actually punish (same statment as hydreigon in actual UU metagame ,click u-turn or either d-metor if ennemy team isn't running a fairy) , You can't rk it , aka no scarf (for exemple scarf zone easily deal with it since 80-90% of t-flame running around are adamant),you can't punish it from switching aka no pursuit ,It's pressuring offensif oriented team by just clicking bb , best Rk mon of the whole PRO game , 6-0ing with ease once you get ride of his counter (wich are few) , Yeah goth is definitly more toxic than that (jk of course if that wasn't obv) ,it's doing his job and his only one job, punishing heavy bad stall (some smart player arn't running psychock+t-bolt, yeah because every stall team on the ladder arn't trash as everythign else runned so far ,about 95% of the ladder tho)So yeah , Tflame+goth on the same team is bs , i can give you that .

[Tymerod]

290139

290116 Btw 10 of 49 Pokemon in the PRO viability rankings from S to A- tier have a steel typing. thats 20%. Given that a pokemons typing can consist of 2 out of 16 types niche would be something below 12,5%.

 

It's funny how you mention 10/49 as if Magnezone can just eliminate these. You think you can just switch into Bisharp without punishment? You think you can just switch into Excadril? You're really trying hard bro, but Magnezone is not as rock, paper, scissors against the entire steel type metagame as you would like to convince me.

 

Revenge killing an excadrill wouldnt be a problem if we had air balloon. And as long as bisharp isnt at +2 there is a 6,5% chance to OHKO it with thunderbolt after stealth rock with the same set even tho switching in is risky.

Yes magnezone wont trap and kill every steel type. I never claimed that. I just said that steel isnt niche what u claimed.

But neither does Gothitelle trap and kill every Pokemon like u want us to believe. And the funny thing is you make an example of rapid spin starmie and count your one example higher than the 5+ examples i gave just because they dont fit your argumentation.

And right now gothitelle isnt used as a trapper. The trapping is used to make Gothitelle a low risk setup sweeper. And that's the problem we should fix before we ban something. We dont know if Gothitelle as a pure trapper is toxic because noone is using it as a pure trapper. But based on the fact that almost noone is complaining about Wobbuffet (without encore) or magnezone or probopass ...

[Shay3100]

I feel like moves such Ice Beam has more than 10% to freeze, 3 of my pokes got frozen one by one which i find kinda wired, while w-o-w missed 3times in a row, i'd to hear you guys if you encountered those things.