Vote: Should be revert Gale Wings to gen6 till battle rework?

[Idkup]

This is probably the dumbest suggestion to ever see the light of day. There's no nicer way to put it. Banning Chansey makes more sense. Banning Fearow, as was suggested in jest, makes more sense.

 

With that out of the way:

 

I. Economy

Talonflame has been gutted for a long time. Randomly increasing the value of a single Pokemon for no good reason (see later sections) would essentially be giving up on any sort of effective economy where value is persistent. When Talonflame was nerfed, everyone knew it was coming eventually. This is the equivalent of giving Kyurem (if it were tradable) (and likely now Garchomp as well) Dragon Dance from Generation 8, arbitrarily skyrocketing its value. This will be abused, no matter how vigilant moderation staff is.

 

II. Consistency

There are so many things that do not work properly on PRO, but most of the differences with Gen 7 standard mechanics are due to the game not being complete (missing Pokemon, moves) or bugs (U-Turn / Volt Switch). The only precedent for this kind of change is Tail Glow Phione, which was questionable in itself but largely ignored due to its uselesness.

 

III. Actual Effects on PvP

For reference, Talonflame sets will be listed here:

 

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant Nature
252 Atk / varying HP / varying Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- U-Turn
- Roost / Will-o-Wisp / Steel Wing

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant Nature
252 Atk / varying HP / varying Spe
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
Careful Nature
varying HP / varying Atk / varying SpD / varying Spe
- Taunt
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Bulk Up / Will-o-Wisp

 

This is a fundamentally polarizing Pokemon, and not one that allows for interesting developments in the metagame. Choice Band sets can invalidate current offensive builds on a whim, Swords Dance excels at shattering certain builds of Balance, and Taunt makes for an excellent stallbreaker. Much like Manaphy, which people continue complaining about to this day, Talonflame's list of true answers is short and often can be chipped out by status or hazards. Rotom-Wash and Tyranitar cannot take U-Turn forever, and incorrectly evaluating the set can have devastating effects - Tyranitar hit by Will-o-Wisp, Thunderbolt Clefable nailed by Choice Band Brave Bird.

 

While there is no doubt that Gale Wings Talonflame would not be broken, adding polarizing threats does not make a metagame more fun. We can see this both by looking at what Smogon bans and does not ban, as well as player opinion on PRO as a whole. Recently, Smogon banned Galar Darmanitan and the Dynamax mechanic at large. Galar Darmanitan has never had the presence of Landorus -T in previous generations of OU, so why was it so quickly sent off? While answers to Landorus-T generally come naturally in teambuilding Gen 7 OU, Galar Darmanitan is polarizing. It forces players to run soft checks such as Rotom formes, or subpar Pokemon in hopes to wall it. Talonflame is much the same - while sets like Defensive Garchomp and Defensive Rotom-Wash are strong and popular, they cannot reliably answer Talonflame alone, as it can defeat them over time.

 

Now, let's take a look at the archetypes PRO players love to complain about.

 

1. Rain

 

It's quite self-evident what rain teams do. You pack a Kingdra answer and a Manaphy answer or you lose. People hate this archetype.

 

2. Stall

 

Stall is hated because of its ability to drag out games which feel hopeless for the losing side. It's also more complicated to answer than Rain, but just as polarizing nonetheless.

 

Why combat this by bringing back a similarly polarizing and uninteractive Pokemon? There are plenty of more interesting options if bulky Balance truly needs a boost - Victini? Tornadus and Thundurus? Even Volcanion can make Balance's somewhat difficult Rain match-up much, much stronger.

 

Lastly, we've seen this all already. We know what Talonflame does. It would be better to bring in truly new Pokemon rather than unleash an old tyrant once again.

 

tl;dr: don't change Talonflame's value again; be consistent with Gen 7 as much as technical limitations allow, who the heck thinks Talonflame would be a positive influence on the metagame

[Jorogumo]

[ATTACH type=full" alt="121627]121627[/ATTACH]says the egirl spamming weather teams since 2k16 LOL. You and similar PRO players like you are the main reasons this game is dead and empty from SERIOUS,COMPETITIVE PvP players,what a joke.

Post-Gen 5 Sun teams are extremely underpowered and are consistently ranked at the bottom of every viability list, including the one made by idkup, which is pinned for everyone else to see. Yet, Belzebel has managed to finish on the ladder 10+ times. Please do not bash her for proving that she can still make it to the ladder using an underpowered playstyle. Everyone else should step it up.

 

And by the way, as long as a winning move can change the outcome of a game (e.g., a Pursuit trapped Gengar missing a critical Focus Blast), Pokémon will never be completely serious and competitive. And before people comment on Focus Blast being overpowered, thus requiring it to have drawbacks, it does not need to have 120 power to begin with, and Talonflame's STABS both have 120 power and don't miss.

[Evilprotagonist]

Im just sad that by simply existing this post telegraph that the battle ui revamp is still far away ( I want my u/volt turns!) :(

[Cam]

No, there is no reason to bring back a 6 Gen ability if we are using 7 Gen mechanics. Why don't we bring back levitate Gengar then? In any case, we should update to Gen 8 mechanics. Also what's the purpose behind this suggestion? It definitely wouldn't be a better PvP metagame, it was nerfed for a reason.

Edited January 10, 2020 by SuperLuigi

[Shunsou]

pretty sure only pve player will say yes for easier game and money

[Exclusivez]

This is probably the dumbest suggestion to ever see the light of day. There's no nicer way to put it. Banning Chansey makes more sense. Banning Fearow, as was suggested in jest, makes more sense.

 

With that out of the way:

 

I. Economy

Talonflame has been gutted for a long time. Randomly increasing the value of a single Pokemon for no good reason (see later sections) would essentially be giving up on any sort of effective economy where value is persistent. When Talonflame was nerfed, everyone knew it was coming eventually. This is the equivalent of giving Kyurem (if it were tradable) (and likely now Garchomp as well) Dragon Dance from Generation 8, arbitrarily skyrocketing its value. This will be abused, no matter how vigilant moderation staff is.

 

II. Consistency

There are so many things that do not work properly on PRO, but most of the differences with Gen 7 standard mechanics are due to the game not being complete (missing Pokemon, moves) or bugs (U-Turn / Volt Switch). The only precedent for this kind of change is Tail Glow Phione, which was questionable in itself but largely ignored due to its uselesness.

 

III. Actual Effects on PvP

For reference, Talonflame sets will be listed here:

 

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant Nature
252 Atk / varying HP / varying Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- U-Turn
- Roost / Will-o-Wisp / Steel Wing

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant Nature
252 Atk / varying HP / varying Spe
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
Careful Nature
varying HP / varying Atk / varying SpD / varying Spe
- Taunt
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Bulk Up / Will-o-Wisp

 

This is a fundamentally polarizing Pokemon, and not one that allows for interesting developments in the metagame. Choice Band sets can invalidate current offensive builds on a whim, Swords Dance excels at shattering certain builds of Balance, and Taunt makes for an excellent stallbreaker. Much like Manaphy, which people continue complaining about to this day, Talonflame's list of true answers is short and often can be chipped out by status or hazards. Rotom-Wash and Tyranitar cannot take U-Turn forever, and incorrectly evaluating the set can have devastating effects - Tyranitar hit by Will-o-Wisp, Thunderbolt Clefable nailed by Choice Band Brave Bird.

 

While there is no doubt that Gale Wings Talonflame would not be broken, adding polarizing threats does not make a metagame more fun. We can see this both by looking at what Smogon bans and does not ban, as well as player opinion on PRO as a whole. Recently, Smogon banned Galar Darmanitan and the Dynamax mechanic at large. Galar Darmanitan has never had the presence of Landorus -T in previous generations of OU, so why was it so quickly sent off? While answers to Landorus-T generally come naturally in teambuilding Gen 7 OU, Galar Darmanitan is polarizing. It forces players to run soft checks such as Rotom formes, or subpar Pokemon in hopes to wall it. Talonflame is much the same - while sets like Defensive Garchomp and Defensive Rotom-Wash are strong and popular, they cannot reliably answer Talonflame alone, as it can defeat them over time.

 

Now, let's take a look at the archetypes PRO players love to complain about.

 

1. Rain

 

It's quite self-evident what rain teams do. You pack a Kingdra answer and a Manaphy answer or you lose. People hate this archetype.

 

2. Stall

 

Stall is hated because of its ability to drag out games which feel hopeless for the losing side. It's also more complicated to answer than Rain, but just as polarizing nonetheless.

 

Why combat this by bringing back a similarly polarizing and uninteractive Pokemon? There are plenty of more interesting options if bulky Balance truly needs a boost - Victini? Tornadus and Thundurus? Even Volcanion can make Balance's somewhat difficult Rain match-up much, much stronger.

 

Lastly, we've seen this all already. We know what Talonflame does. It would be better to bring in truly new Pokemon rather than unleash an old tyrant once again.

 

tl;dr: don't change Talonflame's value again; be consistent with Gen 7 as much as technical limitations allow, who the heck thinks Talonflame would be a positive influence on the metagame

 

+1

[Envymeister]

This is probably the dumbest suggestion to ever see the light of day. There's no nicer way to put it. Banning Chansey makes more sense. Banning Fearow, as was suggested in jest, makes more sense.

 

With that out of the way:

 

I. Economy

Talonflame has been gutted for a long time. Randomly increasing the value of a single Pokemon for no good reason (see later sections) would essentially be giving up on any sort of effective economy where value is persistent. When Talonflame was nerfed, everyone knew it was coming eventually. This is the equivalent of giving Kyurem (if it were tradable) (and likely now Garchomp as well) Dragon Dance from Generation 8, arbitrarily skyrocketing its value. This will be abused, no matter how vigilant moderation staff is.

 

II. Consistency

There are so many things that do not work properly on PRO, but most of the differences with Gen 7 standard mechanics are due to the game not being complete (missing Pokemon, moves) or bugs (U-Turn / Volt Switch). The only precedent for this kind of change is Tail Glow Phione, which was questionable in itself but largely ignored due to its uselesness.

 

III. Actual Effects on PvP

For reference, Talonflame sets will be listed here:

 

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant Nature
252 Atk / varying HP / varying Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- U-Turn
- Roost / Will-o-Wisp / Steel Wing

Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant Nature
252 Atk / varying HP / varying Spe
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Roost

Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
Careful Nature
varying HP / varying Atk / varying SpD / varying Spe
- Taunt
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Bulk Up / Will-o-Wisp

 

This is a fundamentally polarizing Pokemon, and not one that allows for interesting developments in the metagame. Choice Band sets can invalidate current offensive builds on a whim, Swords Dance excels at shattering certain builds of Balance, and Taunt makes for an excellent stallbreaker. Much like Manaphy, which people continue complaining about to this day, Talonflame's list of true answers is short and often can be chipped out by status or hazards. Rotom-Wash and Tyranitar cannot take U-Turn forever, and incorrectly evaluating the set can have devastating effects - Tyranitar hit by Will-o-Wisp, Thunderbolt Clefable nailed by Choice Band Brave Bird.

 

While there is no doubt that Gale Wings Talonflame would not be broken, adding polarizing threats does not make a metagame more fun. We can see this both by looking at what Smogon bans and does not ban, as well as player opinion on PRO as a whole. Recently, Smogon banned Galar Darmanitan and the Dynamax mechanic at large. Galar Darmanitan has never had the presence of Landorus -T in previous generations of OU, so why was it so quickly sent off? While answers to Landorus-T generally come naturally in teambuilding Gen 7 OU, Galar Darmanitan is polarizing. It forces players to run soft checks such as Rotom formes, or subpar Pokemon in hopes to wall it. Talonflame is much the same - while sets like Defensive Garchomp and Defensive Rotom-Wash are strong and popular, they cannot reliably answer Talonflame alone, as it can defeat them over time.

 

Now, let's take a look at the archetypes PRO players love to complain about.

 

1. Rain

 

It's quite self-evident what rain teams do. You pack a Kingdra answer and a Manaphy answer or you lose. People hate this archetype.

 

2. Stall

 

Stall is hated because of its ability to drag out games which feel hopeless for the losing side. It's also more complicated to answer than Rain, but just as polarizing nonetheless.

 

Why combat this by bringing back a similarly polarizing and uninteractive Pokemon? There are plenty of more interesting options if bulky Balance truly needs a boost - Victini? Tornadus and Thundurus? Even Volcanion can make Balance's somewhat difficult Rain match-up much, much stronger.

 

Lastly, we've seen this all already. We know what Talonflame does. It would be better to bring in truly new Pokemon rather than unleash an old tyrant once again.

 

tl;dr: don't change Talonflame's value again; be consistent with Gen 7 as much as technical limitations allow, who the heck thinks Talonflame would be a positive influence on the metagame

I wont even waste a single second reading this, sinceit comed from the guy that says: Volcarona is a rain sweeper ^o anyway. knew many wouldnt agree. and ok. i get it, many dont like it. all i wanted was simple: shouldnt have ever changed from gen6 to gen7 when we lacked so many things, gen6 was incomplete, which made this gen7 super incomplete. all im saying. But bring the hammer and hit me with it for sharing an opinion that u guys dont share ^^

[Vithu96]

I wont even waste a single second reading this, sinceit comed from the guy that says: Volcarona is a rain sweeper ^o anyway. knew many wouldnt agree. and ok. i get it, many dont like it. all i wanted was simple: shouldnt have ever changed from gen6 to gen7 when we lacked so many things, gen6 was incomplete, which made this gen7 super incomplete. all im saying. But bring the hammer and hit me with it for sharing an opinion that u guys dont share ^^

 

+1

[Olker]

I wont even waste a single second reading this, sinceit comed from the guy that says: Volcarona is a rain sweeper ^o anyway. knew many wouldnt agree. and ok. i get it, many dont like it. all i wanted was simple: shouldnt have ever changed from gen6 to gen7 when we lacked so many things, gen6 was incomplete, which made this gen7 super incomplete. all im saying. But bring the hammer and hit me with it for sharing an opinion that u guys dont share ^^

 

Actually, it can kind of work due to hurricane. xd

[Evilprotagonist]

I wont even waste a single second reading this, sinceit comed from the guy that says: Volcarona is a rain sweeper ^o anyway. knew many wouldnt agree. and ok. i get it, many dont like it. all i wanted was simple: shouldnt have ever changed from gen6 to gen7 when we lacked so many things, gen6 was incomplete, which made this gen7 super incomplete. all im saying. But bring the hammer and hit me with it for sharing an opinion that u guys dont share ^^

 

 

 

erm we are not here talking about gen 6 or gen 7. We are talking about talonflame specific so i dont understand what you are trying to acomplish. I myself would rather keep the state we have right now compared to taking back everything gen7 from the current game... but again thats not what we are discussing here no? And ur argument that gen 6 and gen 7 was not complete, well u-turn/volt turn which is pretty pivotal for the game is not complete, so should we go back to the gen before u-turn/ volt turn was introduced?