Ban ASH GRENINJA in pvp

[Stavd]

1 hour ago, SuperHuy13 said:

I know the others have already talked about this but. Literally the only priority that can potentially kill ash gren is breloom's mach punch. Gren is just laughing on all other ones

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 203-239 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and 12,5% damage from rocks....

4 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 172-203 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 139-165 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 109-129 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 351-416 (123.1 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

This is the damage ash greninja takes from priority moves of h.o. teams...

Edited October 11, 2020 by stavd

[Superhuy13]

47 minutes ago, stavd said:

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 203-239 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and 12,5% damage from rocks....

4 SpA Life Orb Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 172-203 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 139-165 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 109-129 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 351-416 (123.1 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

This is the damage ash greninja takes from priority moves of h.o. teams...

that's why i said that only mach punch is able to take down gren. the vacumn wave is counted but it's way too rare to see spatk lucario on h.o, and look ex speed 2hko sucker punch 3hko while 1 hydro pump can easily take them down

[Papoo]

-1

[Karyyy]

-1

[Stavd]

2 hours ago, SuperHuy13 said:

that's why i said that only mach punch is able to take down gren. the vacumn wave is counted but it's way too rare to see spatk lucario on h.o, and look ex speed 2hko sucker punch 3hko while 1 hydro pump can easily take them down

the damage of stealth rocks + priorities show that against h.o. bb gren can kill 0-1 poke before dying and is not able to turn the tables in battle, while if utilised correctly in a hazzard team can make stallers bleed...

[Eric66]

11 hours ago, Aggs said:

Stall is a playstyle. Get over it. This man typed a whole paragraph for you to understand, which gives the rundown on why Ash-Gren is unhealthy for the meta, regardless of whether this meta is "healthy" in general, and you reply with a 1-liner that doesn't pertain to the discussion. If you're argument is "people will use stall regardless," then maybe you should start adapting to the meta

I'll get right to the chase. There's only 1 set that BB Gren should ever run, and that one set is the set I will be referencing here. The team style that suffers the most from this is Balance. Greninja excels at exuding offensive pressure, and BB Greninja sets rewards the user with spikes. Spike stacking, in turn, will force X mon to defog or spin, which forces a loss of momentum. Gren and its team starts to take advantage of this by upping the momentum for the user. Key mons in balance cores, such as Heatran, whose only recovery revolves around Leftovers (and in the case of Gen7, Grassy Terrain), despise hazards. It limits how many times they can come in to check the mons they are suppose to. Now, as I'm sure you're aware of, Regen cores that are available to PRO, such as Tangrowth/Amoonguss + Tornadus-T + Slowbro do not contain a sufficient enough of defensive presence to actually handle Dark Pulse spam with any hazard up: 

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 139-165 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery  (Amoonguss will most likely not run full spdef, but this is a Best Case for Amoonguss.)
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 121-144 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

1. The problem is that BB Gren, after getting an eventual kill on any unboosted mon, if not the lead, you will be forced to run at least 2 extreme speed mons just for Ash-Gren. Water Shuriken does too much to any current H.O. team, and Banded Dnite is only as good as what you can hit with it. If you extreme speed the Gren, cool, but will any decent player allow you to do that? Anything after that just becomes a lot of theory which is way too unreliable to fall back on. 

    Scarf Pokes are by no means reliable if you are assuming a 6v6 and not a 1v6. It's really player-dependent, and any loss of momentum, being forced to switch out on a wrong move in the mid-game should transition into a loss. 

    I hear you hate the rain meta. Well, let me tell you, rain will become one of the most dominate teams in the meta, and BB Gren being around just makes it worse. So, you know how Chansey is suppose to sit in front of Greninja? It'd be a shame if it were paired with the best Swift Swimmer Mega Pert, one of the best Knock Off users in Tornadus-T, the demonic Ferrothorn, the catalyst Pelipper, and a 6th mon of your choice, where popular options are Manaphy and Azumarill, while other popular options, such as Magearna and Kartana, are not available. If you want to compare Gen7 OU AT ALL to PRO, you will realize that once Mega Swampert comes out, we will have Gen 7 Z-less Rain. This is a huge problem because PRO is not equipped to deal with this team at all, without the meta becoming a clash between Rain and Rain-Counter teams. There's a reason Rain in Gen 7 had 5 locked slots in the team, and if you want to advocate for that, be my guest, but you're defending one of the things you have stated that you do not like about PRO.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr in Rain: 354-423 (91 - 108.7%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Scizor-Mega in Rain: 183-219 (53.3 - 63.8%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 219-258 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

2. Goodra doesn't get recovery, needs extensive team support, and its Physically squishy side is easily exploited. There's nothing else to say. 

3. How easily is easily, when Bold Venu, which I would argue is the popular set of PRO now, does not appreciate any chip whatsoever, which is kind of a problem if you need it to check other Mons, but require full HP to handle Greninja with 1 spike up:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 135-159 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 189-223 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In a perfect game state, I would agree that Bold Venusaur-Mega defeats Greninja 1v1. But unless you achieve that perfect game stat consistently, Gren will be taking advantage of the fact that Venusaur cannot swap into it, and kill other mons to break for its team.  

4. Firstly, you named one of five Priority moves that Greninja resists. I'm going to leave it at that.
Secondly, H.O. teams will be forced to change to handle BB Gren variants if you do not want to struggle with it as much. Currently, you can have some variance between your leads, Mega, and mons in the back, as not everyone has access to a usable BB Gren now. By using an example of some pokes that Stavd gave, we can assume Future H.O. will be comprised of about 2 Suicide leads, and about 6 Pokemon to choose from in the back, including Mega:
Garchomp, Azelf (Leads)
Lucario, Breloom, Azumarill[BD], Dnite[DD], Mega Gyara, Mega Scizor (Setup)
Azumarill, Dnite (Choiced)

Any other current H.O. lead is weak to Water, and therefore has the potential to die to Water Shuriken, which would leave the H.O. player with no Rocks, an Ash-Gren to deal with, and down a sack:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 288-342 (79.7 - 94.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 270-324 (74.7 - 89.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 252-306 (86 - 104.4%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 288-342 (75 - 89%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 240-288 (79.7 - 95.6%) -- approx. 2HKO

So unless you want to have the meta of H.O. be a guessing game, or a game of Roulette, I would assume these mons as H.O. leads will die.

As for the rest of the H.O. Squad, you want to claim as many kills as possible before going to the next mon, or setting up for a late-game mon to clean/sweep, by getting chip with your other mons. Which means you will be trading a lot of pokes, and taking damage in the process. Here is some food for thought on the type of damage Ash Gren does (We'll assume no spikes, as if you setup on BB Gren with anything you are asking to lose the game).

Calc Dump:

  Reveal hidden contents

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 126-147 (48.2 - 56.3%) -- approx. 94.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 408-480 (145.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 120-142 (36.2 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Priority vs Ash Gren:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja-Ash: 83-98 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja-Ash: 204-240 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja-Ash: 155-182 (54.3 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja-Ash: 83-98 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

As a closer, all this thing does is eat [butt] and is a boon for players with a somewhat extensive knowledge of the game and its mechanics. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk, and I hope this helps people realize that having Clefable or Conkeldurr as our best Dark Resist makes Ash Gren a ticking time bomb, except it doesn't wait for the time to go down, or for you to cut the wrong wire. It decides when to blow.

EDIT: Shoutouts to Cyanirl for being my Calc Bot. I told him what I needed as I thought, and he pumped them out for me 

 

 

You cannot be serious, right? 1 line, okay, I couldnt answer more to that. But heres the question. You guys want to ban it, beacuse you cant deal with it? You should adopt to it than. Many "kind" people asked me on discord, why do I want to ban pokes like Chansey, Skarmory, Alomomola and so on. They asked, I cant deal with them, or what? I asked them the same question, and their only answer was "lol". Many players have atleast 1 or 2 counter in their team, and the so called "ladder players" are afraid of that mon. Thought they are there, beacuse they have many checks and answers and not beacuse they are afraid of a pokemon. Pokes like Goodra laughs at Ash-Greninja, while there were many calculations, how ridiculous is to stay in with Ash-Greninja against many poke. Dragonite, which is one, if not the most common dragon type in pvp, banded or dd set, easily deals with Ash-Greninja. So, heres the question. You cant adopt to meta? Or I should play rain or stall, and literally make people angry at pvp? Beacuse these 2 teams are the worst among all of them, I dont say they dont need skill, but I dont think using recovery/status moves with regenerator abilities, or putting up rain and use Kingdra or any other Swift Swim poke need so much thinking. Fun fact, when they will add tapus and magearna, we will have the same topic, beacuse they are broken. The million amount of set that they can have will change the whole meta, and we will say the same, they should be banned beacuse not everyone have checks for them. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Eric66

[0danobunaga]

53 minutes ago, Eric66 said:

Beacuse these 2 teams are the worst among all of them, I dont say they dont need skill, but I dont think using recovery/status moves with regenerator abilities, or putting up rain and use Kingdra or any other Swift Swim poke need so much thinking. Fun fact, when they will add tapus and magearna, we will have the same topic, beacuse they are broken. The million amount of set that they can have will change the whole meta, and we will say the same, they should be banned beacuse not everyone have checks for them. 

You already mention rain is broken then why u need allow ash-greninja? even ash-greninja also can in rain too

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by 0danobunaga

[0danobunaga]

Unfollow this thread then if you dw get message

 

[Eric66]

5 hours ago, 0danobunaga said:

You already mention rain is broken then why u need allow ash-greninja? even ash-greninja also can in rain too

 

Beacuse it can be used in many teams. Rain is just an option. 

[Aggs]

13 hours ago, Eric66 said:

You cannot be serious, right? 1 line, okay, I couldnt answer more to that. But heres the question. You guys want to ban it, beacuse you cant deal with it? You should adopt to it than. Many "kind" people asked me on discord, why do I want to ban pokes like Chansey, Skarmory, Alomomola and so on. They asked, I cant deal with them, or what? I asked them the same question, and their only answer was "lol". Many players have atleast 1 or 2 counter in their team, and the so called "ladder players" are afraid of that mon. Thought they are there, beacuse they have many checks and answers and not beacuse they are afraid of a pokemon. Pokes like Goodra laughs at Ash-Greninja, while there were many calculations, how ridiculous is to stay in with Ash-Greninja against many poke. Dragonite, which is one, if not the most common dragon type in pvp, banded or dd set, easily deals with Ash-Greninja. So, heres the question. You cant adopt to meta? Or I should play rain or stall, and literally make people angry at pvp? Beacuse these 2 teams are the worst among all of them, I dont say they dont need skill, but I dont think using recovery/status moves with regenerator abilities, or putting up rain and use Kingdra or any other Swift Swim poke need so much thinking. Fun fact, when they will add tapus and magearna, we will have the same topic, beacuse they are broken. The million amount of set that they can have will change the whole meta, and we will say the same, they should be banned beacuse not everyone have checks for them. 

I dont think you understand where I'm coming from. Bottom line, I will abuse this Mon until it's banned, and I'll adapt alright. I guess i tried giving an explanaton on why, but you still don't understand. I can't force you to learn, and if you don't want to learn, be my guest. I gave you a whole book to read, and you read the first line, congrats. Come back when you have something constructive to say.