pvp rules Ranked PvP Rules.

[Einheria]

247872

247224And now to the "old arguments".

Is it fair for players who waste a lot of time to get a speed boost torchic?

Is it fair for players to face an extremely broken pokemon ? The argument of rarity isn't one, you can't go hunt for a Uber poke and then complain because it is/will get banned.

247224Tiers in smogon are based on the %-usage of a pokemon.

This is valid for all the tiers, expect LC and Uber (maybe other ones but those are the most used).

And uber ban are voted by majority (60%+ not just 50%)

247136 but in my opinion u can counter it.

Why even discuss if this stupid argument come everytime (don't misunderstood me, i'm not insulting you).

Of course every poke can be countered (well expect mega rayquaza but even him can be (sometimes) killed), but that doesn't mean they aren't OP, Mewtwo can be countered, but everyone here will agree that mewtwo is stupidly OP and should never be allowed here, same goes for other pokemons like h.a gothi or h.a blaziken.

 

This is so true :y:

 

To start with Speed boost Blaziken, it can easily clean late-game with only one speed boost and sweep entire teams with swords dance + speed boost. It is ridiculously easy to grab a speed boost with Protect and setting up with SD is also trivial when facing overused pokemon such as Foretress, Scizor, Weavile, Ferrothorn or Tyranitar which are set-up fodder for Blaze. With a speed boost under its belt, even faster pokemon such as Jolteon, Starmie and Gengar are unable to check it and will be OHKO before even moving and considering that there is no Choice scarf in PRO atm, outspeeding a Blaziken is impossible.

 

With that in mind, a +2 attack and +1 speed Blaziken is nearly unstoppable and can 6-0 a team with only one true counter which is Slowbro but it will need full health to check it. Let's do some calcs :

 

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 302-356 (116.1 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 369-435 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 462-546 (138.3 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 1398-1646 (217.7 - 256.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 441-520 (112.2 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 336-396 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 1092-1288 (310.2 - 365.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 239-282 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

I took the sturdiest walls in the metagame and they are all obliterated by Blaziken after one swords dance, except Slowbro, a feat that no other pokemon can boast. Offensive pokemon such as Gengar, Alakazam or Weavile are outspeeden after a single speed boost and have no chance to survive any hit from Blaze. The only thing you can do is to sacrifice a pokemon to bring on your revenge killer (Talonflame or Azumarill will be mandatory on any team to try to revenge Blaze) and to only force Blaze out, not to mention it can also Baton pass its boosts to a team mate. Imo, Blaziken clearly hinders team building by forcing any player to run specifics pokemons just to stand a chance against it.

 

So imo, Blaziken with speed boost is unhealthy for the metagame and should be banned because it is too powerful.

 

For Gothitelle, it is a bit different. Its stats are average and it is really slow. But it has no counter. Let me remind that a counter is a pokemon which is able to switch on the pokemon, stomach at least one attack on the switch-in and retaliate by killing it or forcing it out. For example, Weavile is not a counter to Garchomp since it cannot switch on its Earthquake or Outrage. It's only a revenge killer or, at best, a check to Chomp.

 

Since shadow tag prevent you from switching, well... you cannot counter it and it demolishs stall teams by getting +6 with Calm mind and before ripping the team appart. Personnaly, i hate stalls team, i truly do. It annoys me to no end everytime i have an 1 hour battle full of roost/defog/heal beal/etc... so i should be happy that Goth can deter people from using stall. Of course, Goth is not that strong against offense/hyper-offense team. But objectively, a pokemon which is powerful enough to deny an entire playstyle (stall) should be suspected, just as smogon did.

 

So as far as i'm concerned, Blaziken and Gothitelle are arguably the two most broken mons in the metagame atm. Of course, they can be defeated but Primal Kyogre also have counters (Quagsire) and it's still broken and OP for overused play, as Drayano says. The fact is the former requires tremendous preparation in teambuilding to stand a chance against it and the latter simply destroys a entire playstyle should be enough to consider a ban.

[Dohko]

is analytic even working properly? I noticed that when an opponent switches pokemon analytic does not power up an attack as it should.

[Coop33]

247939 -

 

Very nice, thats smth to work with.;)

 

Well first of all there is no protect. So this option doesnt work.

 

But in PRO u cant see the whole team of opponent, so you can easily hide your blaziken until a wall like ferro appears which u could use as set-up fodder. I have to agree. U dont know which danger awaits u if bringing in the ferro or smth similar. So u expect the sd and then u need to have a prio 1hko like talon or possible azu or u face a baton pass etc etc... So Pokes like starmie or gengar wont eat a flare blitz.

 

Im a bit surprised by numbers even a donphan/hipp eats, even without life orb or mega. With sturdy broken u could be done, otherwise u kill blaziken insta with EQ. So they are still no counter, u have to sacrifice smth.

247939 Imo, Blaziken clearly hinders team building by forcing any player to run specifics pokemons just to stand a chance against it.

 

So imo, Blaziken with speed boost is unhealthy for the metagame and should be banned because it is too powerful.

 

Well, good arguments, this shouldnt be the case.:)

Well now u have to consider that not everyone finds a ada 31 atk speed boost blaziken. Solid walls are most likely easier to find. But hey a 10 atk ada blaziken should do almost the same job as a 31 atk blaziken.

So if you are good enough and build your team around it, it might be a pain to deal with. Even without sub/protect.

 

I havent met that many in pvp currently. If i meet more i might see if its really a nightmare to deal with. Im still not completly convinved. So staff might suspect it and decide.

 

Gothitelle is smth else, yeah its very good vs a stall team. Im not a fan of stall teams, but i feel they can play around it. Most of them run roar/whirlwind/dragontail anyway on several pokes. Another way is u play also set up like calm mind or nasty plot, clefable, mew, togekiss etc. To set up while shes asleep.

Even with blissey its a hard fight since u have to break through her paras while setting up and get that rest off, before u die to seismic toss. And if u run rest, calm mind, sleep talk there isnt much space for smth else. Trick choice scarf is just to important to really break a wall effectivly and cripple it for the entire match and freely set up on the wall. So in PRO she doesnt effectivly break every wall she faces.

And if u dont meet a stall team u literally wasted a move slot as death fodder. So its even not easy that easy to climb with her. What ive seen of gothitelles which tried to set up on my walls i was running i just tought: meh?^^

And since its super rare etc i dont feel she needs a ban or being suspected. I really think she being around in maybe 1 of 15-20 matches makes pvp more enjoyable and competitive.

 

 

Nevertheless if one of them really gets banned ill think of more pokes which need to be suspected, cause u need to carry to many pokes with u against them. Cause of...

Imo, ... clearly hinders team building by forcing any player to run specifics pokemons just to stand a chance against it.

 

Its a good argument, no doubt! ;)

[Tr3y]

247939

247872

247224And now to the "old arguments".

Is it fair for players who waste a lot of time to get a speed boost torchic?

Is it fair for players to face an extremely broken pokemon ? The argument of rarity isn't one, you can't go hunt for a Uber poke and then complain because it is/will get banned.

247224Tiers in smogon are based on the %-usage of a pokemon.

This is valid for all the tiers, expect LC and Uber (maybe other ones but those are the most used).

And uber ban are voted by majority (60%+ not just 50%)

247136 but in my opinion u can counter it.

Why even discuss if this stupid argument come everytime (don't misunderstood me, i'm not insulting you).

Of course every poke can be countered (well expect mega rayquaza but even him can be (sometimes) killed), but that doesn't mean they aren't OP, Mewtwo can be countered, but everyone here will agree that mewtwo is stupidly OP and should never be allowed here, same goes for other pokemons like h.a gothi or h.a blaziken.

 

This is so true :y:

 

To start with Speed boost Blaziken, it can easily clean late-game with only one speed boost and sweep entire teams with swords dance + speed boost. It is ridiculously easy to grab a speed boost with Protect and setting up with SD is also trivial when facing overused pokemon such as Foretress, Scizor, Weavile, Ferrothorn or Tyranitar which are set-up fodder for Blaze. With a speed boost under its belt, even faster pokemon such as Jolteon, Starmie and Gengar are unable to check it and will be OHKO before even moving and considering that there is no Choice scarf in PRO atm, outspeeding a Blaziken is impossible.

 

With that in mind, a +2 attack and +1 speed Blaziken is nearly unstoppable and can 6-0 a team with only one true counter which is Slowbro but it will need full health to check it. Let's do some calcs :

 

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 302-356 (116.1 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 369-435 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 462-546 (138.3 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 1398-1646 (217.7 - 256.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 441-520 (112.2 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 336-396 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 1092-1288 (310.2 - 365.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 239-282 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Black Belt Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 180-213 (45.6 - 54%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

I took the sturdiest walls in the metagame and they are all obliterated by Blaziken after one swords dance, except Slowbro, a feat that no other pokemon can boast. Offensive pokemon such as Gengar, Alakazam or Weavile are outspeeden after a single speed boost and have no chance to survive any hit from Blaze. The only thing you can do is to sacrifice a pokemon to bring on your revenge killer (Talonflame or Azumarill will be mandatory on any team to try to revenge Blaze) and to only force Blaze out, not to mention it can also Baton pass its boosts to a team mate. Imo, Blaziken clearly hinders team building by forcing any player to run specifics pokemons just to stand a chance against it.

 

So imo, Blaziken with speed boost is unhealthy for the metagame and should be banned because it is too powerful.

 

For Gothitelle, it is a bit different. Its stats are average and it is really slow. But it has no counter. Let me remind that a counter is a pokemon which is able to switch on the pokemon, stomach at least one attack on the switch-in and retaliate by killing it or forcing it out. For example, Weavile is not a counter to Garchomp since it cannot switch on its Earthquake or Outrage. It's only a revenge killer or, at best, a check to Chomp.

 

Since shadow tag prevent you from switching, well... you cannot counter it and it demolishs stall teams by getting +6 with Calm mind and before ripping the team appart. Personnaly, i hate stalls team, i truly do. It annoys me to no end everytime i have an 1 hour battle full of roost/defog/heal beal/etc... so i should be happy that Goth can deter people from using stall. Of course, Goth is not that strong against offense/hyper-offense team. But objectively, a pokemon which is powerful enough to deny an entire playstyle (stall) should be suspected, just as smogon did.

 

So as far as i'm concerned, Blaziken and Gothitelle are arguably the two most broken mons in the metagame atm. Of course, they can be defeated but Primal Kyogre also have counters (Quagsire) and it's still broken and OP for overused play, as Drayano says. The fact is the former requires tremendous preparation in teambuilding to stand a chance against it and the latter simply destroys a entire playstyle should be enough to consider a ban.

I agree with everything you just said.

[Drayano]

"Sleep Talk while awake(doesn't consume PP, if you see the opponent not using a move while awake, it's this)"

Is this really banned ? (i don't use it but i'll take for example when i play showdown)

Sometimes when i'm sleeping i use sleep talk to don't waste turn but i can't precisely know when my pokemon will wake up again and i end up wasting a turn using sleep talk when my poke just woke up that turn, so is this case banned ?

[Einheria]

248070 Gothitelle is smth else, yeah its very good vs a stall team. Im not a fan of stall teams, but i feel they can play around it. Most of them run roar/whirlwind/dragontail anyway on several pokes. Another way is u play also set up like calm mind or nasty plot, clefable, mew, togekiss etc. To set up while shes asleep.

Even with blissey its a hard fight since u have to break through her paras while setting up and get that rest off, before u die to seismic toss. And if u run rest, calm mind, sleep talk there isnt much space for smth else. Trick choice scarf is just to important to really break a wall effectivly and cripple it for the entire match and freely set up on the wall. So in PRO she doesnt effectivly break every wall she faces.

And if u dont meet a stall team u literally wasted a move slot as death fodder. So its even not easy that easy to climb with her. What ive seen of gothitelles which tried to set up on my walls i was running i just tought: meh?^^

And since its super rare etc i dont feel she needs a ban or being suspected. I really think she being around in maybe 1 of 15-20 matches makes pvp more enjoyable and competitive.

 

Thanks for your point of view. I also believe that Gothitelle is far less dangerous than Blaziken, as you say many walls such as Skarmory runs whirwind or roar. The lack of team preview on PRO can be used to hide Gothitelle from your opponent so he cannot anticipate its switch-in though.

 

And according to Shane, Protect and Detect are coded and should now work.

[Coop33]

Do you mean sleep talk in combination with rest?

Rest has a defined number of 2 sleep turns. So after u rested u can exactly use for the next 2 turns sleep talk on your poke. On 3rd turn u wake up and if u pressed sleep talk again and it should fail.^^

 

Why should it be banned? I dont really understand what u mean i think. xd

 

248090

And according to Shane, Protect and Detect are coded and should now work.

 

Yeah, thats right. :)

But blaziken needs protect-TM, which isnt in the game. It doesnt learn it per level or egg move.

[Einheria]

248092 Yeah, thats right. :)

But blaziken needs protect-TM, which isnt in the game. It doesnt learn it per level or egg move.

 

Oh my bad, i didn't know that Protect TM hasn't been released yet :Grin:

247403

246947

246656 i think move Roar should be banned , what will you do if competitor use roar ?

 

If Roar was banned everyone would spam Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot much easier, which could mess up balance. Roar users always move last, as a rule, so you can counter with any of your moves. Keep hitting until the Roar user drops or use Taunt, Leech Seed, status, anything to give it a hard time.

after using steal rock , spikes . they use roar continuously

what will you do

 

You can use a stallbreaker with taunt to prevent them from phazing you out or simply run a rapid spinner or a defogger to remove entry hazards. Roar/Whirlwind should never be banned or swords dance/dragon dance will become too OP.

[Francostarz321]

will you guys add more rules?

[Itachidu75]

Just a rapid question because I didn't see that precise on the coded moves , pursuit doesn't do the effect attempt which is to attack before the pokémon switch and double power instead he just attack like a normal attack . So is it normal or is it just for me ? ( and please can you respond because often I don't have answer which is a bit annoying )