Ban ASH GRENINJA in pvp

[Keabu]

[Baganha]

yeah dude idk dude, eric seems to be the only guy who knows what hes talking about, keep going at em champ, these stall noobheads think they can outsmart you lol, they are so wrong like hello? its clear they wanna keep their chanseys and skarms safe, they cant leave their houses without them, lol cowards, i wish i could meet them in pvp with my mach punch conk and av azus and destroy them, but they all stop pvping as soon as i go online cause they are all scared lol.

[Dopxmine]

1 hour ago, stavd said:

against h.o. gren ,even evolved, won t be able to do much, especially against teams that run drago, breloom, gyara, azu...also it won t survive enough rounds to have the luxury to apply hazzards...the same time against stall, if utilised correctly can wear out the opponent core and hit the final blow if necessary...that s the main reason h.o. players dont even bother to comment here, whilst players that use stall cores are all against ash greninja...i have to make clear though, i am not against the ban...cause under certain circumstances rain teams will become invincible with ash greninja...

here are some calcs
there may be flaws in the calcs and what i noted, so feel free to roast me if im wrong. im tired xd.

without rocks + spikes:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 110-130 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 42-48 (13 - 14.8%) -- approx. possible 7HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 84-99 (26 - 30.6%) -- approx. 4HKO
// you'd be out of your mind to leave your gren in vs a dnite anyways.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 126-150 (48.2 - 57.4%) -- approx. 97.7% chance to 2HKO
// breloom cannot reliably switch into ash gren and if hazards are up, it gets guaranteed 2hko.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 120-142 (36.2 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 171-202 (60 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 257-303 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
// gyarados, if it's already mega'd, can switch in on ash gren somewhat reliably if no hazards are on the field and have a chance to ohko ash gren but you wouldnt leave ash gren in unless you know it can ohko.

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 183-216 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 133-157 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 54-65 (18.9 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 82-97 (28.7 - 34%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO

// azu cannot come in reliably on ash gren and if hazards are up, it gets guaranteed 2hko by dark pulse.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Dopxmine

[Deita]

It does too much damage to too many mons while hitting 399 speed. Ban hammer this thing into narnia, case closed.

 

 

 

[Aggs]

7 hours ago, Eric66 said:

The problem with that is many ppl using stall, regardless Ash-Greninja or h. o. teams. 

Stall is a playstyle. Get over it. This man typed a whole paragraph for you to understand, which gives the rundown on why Ash-Gren is unhealthy for the meta, regardless of whether this meta is "healthy" in general, and you reply with a 1-liner that doesn't pertain to the discussion. If you're argument is "people will use stall regardless," then maybe you should start adapting to the meta

I'll get right to the chase. There's only 1 set that BB Gren should ever run, and that one set is the set I will be referencing here. The team style that suffers the most from this is Balance. Greninja excels at exuding offensive pressure, and BB Greninja sets rewards the user with spikes. Spike stacking, in turn, will force X mon to defog or spin, which forces a loss of momentum. Gren and its team starts to take advantage of this by upping the momentum for the user. Key mons in balance cores, such as Heatran, whose only recovery revolves around Leftovers (and in the case of Gen7, Grassy Terrain), despise hazards. It limits how many times they can come in to check the mons they are suppose to. Now, as I'm sure you're aware of, Regen cores that are available to PRO, such as Tangrowth/Amoonguss + Tornadus-T + Slowbro do not contain a sufficient enough of defensive presence to actually handle Dark Pulse spam with any hazard up: 

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 139-165 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery  (Amoonguss will most likely not run full spdef, but this is a Best Case for Amoonguss.)
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 121-144 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

7 hours ago, Eric66 said:

Really useful poke i side ho teams too, while scarf pokes/weather a users can deal with it. |1| Goodra actually laughs at it. |2| Venusaur easily restore its own hp while killing it. |3| Kingdra or any other ss poke kills it. |4| Prio moves, like Bullet Punch most likely kills it. |5|

 

1. The problem is that BB Gren, after getting an eventual kill on any unboosted mon, if not the lead, you will be forced to run at least 2 extreme speed mons just for Ash-Gren. Water Shuriken does too much to any current H.O. team, and Banded Dnite is only as good as what you can hit with it. If you extreme speed the Gren, cool, but will any decent player allow you to do that? Anything after that just becomes a lot of theory which is way too unreliable to fall back on. 

    Scarf Pokes are by no means reliable if you are assuming a 6v6 and not a 1v6. It's really player-dependent, and any loss of momentum, being forced to switch out on a wrong move in the mid-game should transition into a loss. 

    I hear you hate the rain meta. Well, let me tell you, rain will become one of the most dominate teams in the meta, and BB Gren being around just makes it worse. So, you know how Chansey is suppose to sit in front of Greninja? It'd be a shame if it were paired with the best Swift Swimmer Mega Pert, one of the best Knock Off users in Tornadus-T, the demonic Ferrothorn, the catalyst Pelipper, and a 6th mon of your choice, where popular options are Manaphy and Azumarill, while other popular options, such as Magearna and Kartana, are not available. If you want to compare Gen7 OU AT ALL to PRO, you will realize that once Mega Swampert comes out, we will have Gen 7 Z-less Rain. This is a huge problem because PRO is not equipped to deal with this team at all, without the meta becoming a clash between Rain and Rain-Counter teams. There's a reason Rain in Gen 7 had 5 locked slots in the team, and if you want to advocate for that, be my guest, but you're defending one of the things you have stated that you do not like about PRO.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr in Rain: 354-423 (91 - 108.7%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Scizor-Mega in Rain: 183-219 (53.3 - 63.8%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 219-258 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

2. Goodra doesn't get recovery, needs extensive team support, and its Physically squishy side is easily exploited. There's nothing else to say. 

3. How easily is easily, when Bold Venu, which I would argue is the popular set of PRO now, does not appreciate any chip whatsoever, which is kind of a problem if you need it to check other Mons, but require full HP to handle Greninja with 1 spike up:

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 135-159 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 189-223 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In a perfect game state, I would agree that Bold Venusaur-Mega defeats Greninja 1v1. But unless you achieve that perfect game stat consistently, Gren will be taking advantage of the fact that Venusaur cannot swap into it, and kill other mons to break for its team.  

4. Firstly, you named one of five Priority moves that Greninja resists. I'm going to leave it at that.
Secondly, H.O. teams will be forced to change to handle BB Gren variants if you do not want to struggle with it as much. Currently, you can have some variance between your leads, Mega, and mons in the back, as not everyone has access to a usable BB Gren now. By using an example of some pokes that Stavd gave, we can assume Future H.O. will be comprised of about 2 Suicide leads, and about 6 Pokemon to choose from in the back, including Mega:
Garchomp, Azelf (Leads)
Lucario, Breloom, Azumarill[BD], Dnite[DD], Mega Gyara, Mega Scizor (Setup)
Azumarill, Dnite (Choiced)

Any other current H.O. lead is weak to Water, and therefore has the potential to die to Water Shuriken, which would leave the H.O. player with no Rocks, an Ash-Gren to deal with, and down a sack:
 

Spoiler

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 288-342 (79.7 - 94.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 270-324 (74.7 - 89.7%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 252-306 (86 - 104.4%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 288-342 (75 - 89%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 240-288 (79.7 - 95.6%) -- approx. 2HKO

So unless you want to have the meta of H.O. be a guessing game, or a game of Roulette, I would assume these mons as H.O. leads will die.

As for the rest of the H.O. Squad, you want to claim as many kills as possible before going to the next mon, or setting up for a late-game mon to clean/sweep, by getting chip with your other mons. Which means you will be trading a lot of pokes, and taking damage in the process. Here is some food for thought on the type of damage Ash Gren does (We'll assume no spikes, as if you setup on BB Gren with anything you are asking to lose the game).

Calc Dump:

Spoiler

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 126-147 (48.2 - 56.3%) -- approx. 94.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 408-480 (145.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 120-142 (36.2 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Priority vs Ash Gren:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja-Ash: 83-98 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja-Ash: 204-240 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja-Ash: 155-182 (54.3 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja-Ash: 83-98 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

As a closer, all this thing does is eat [butt] and is a boon for players with a somewhat extensive knowledge of the game and its mechanics. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk, and I hope this helps people realize that having Clefable or Conkeldurr as our best Dark Resist makes Ash Gren a ticking time bomb, except it doesn't wait for the time to go down, or for you to cut the wrong wire. It decides when to blow.

EDIT: Shoutouts to Cyanirl for being my Calc Bot. I told him what I needed as I thought, and he pumped them out for me 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Aggs
Added credit to someone who helped me

[Cyanirl]

[Aggs]

Oh, also, it's not suppose to be use any Hidden Powers except I believe Ghost, due to IV Lock from the In-Game Event. HP Fire is doodoo even if it were real, and you shouldn't even attempt it, please.

[Archfndweavile]

[Aggs]

9 hours ago, CaptainEG said:

While there are so many tank meta in the game, I think this type of pokemon should not be banned. I think it is a weakness to keep pokemons such as skarmory and chansey in your team and to constantly ask that such pokemon be banned. GL 

A quick preface. By "you" I mostly mean as a general sense, and not any particular 1 person for all of these responses to the thread. 

Well, we just got a handy dandy tool to counteract walls and tanks called Substitute! We've also had Taunt for quite a while now, so I'm here quoting you to inform you about them, so that you may not think of it as a weakness!

 

 

10 hours ago, Eric66 said:

Lets add stuffs from Gen7, and kill the whole pvp system. Ash Greninja is a form, like any other mega form. Tapus, toxapex, etc. that you guys want to add, beacuse in your opinions they are totally not broken, to counter Ash Greninja. Well, let me tell you something. They are the broken pokes, not Ash-Greninja. Toxapex with a combo like Skarmory would be barely unbeatable, so many players could start a post like this. Theres many thing that is not coded yet, but the current pokes that we have can easily counter Ash-Greninja. 

We do not even have everything from Gen 5 that would possibly be legal in our metagame, it was a mistake period to add Ash-Greninja alone. For starters, we have a pitiful amount of viable Dark resists, which the Tapus, alongside Magearna, were all amazing at. Toxapex is a defensive demon, sure, but it is by far unkillable. It's offensive presence is non existent, making anything that resists water Sub and proceed to abuse the fact that Pex cannot do anything back. Also, if you're gonna suggest something paired with Toxapex, you shoulda thought about the fact that they are both weak to Electric, and Magnezone single handedly beats both 1v1. 

 

9 hours ago, Coono said:

There are plenty of counter in the current meta. Chansey/Blissey, Goodra, Ferro, Mantine, Mega Venu, Alomola, Alolan Muk, Tentacruel, anything with mach punch, plenty of scarf users such as Garchomp and Lando, weather sweepers, and many focus sash offensive mons. Just off the top of my head.

 

 

I think the community needs to understand between the difference between a counter and a check. A COUNTER is something that will 95% of the time ALWAYS come in on said Pokemon, and threaten to kill it immediately. A CHECK is something that can come in more often than not, but under certain circumstances will lose to said Pokemon.

Chansey/Blissey - They are a very hard check to Greninja. In a 1v1 scenario, Dark Pulse flinches aside, they will defeat Greninja 1v1. However, every time you want to switch in Chansey or Blissey, Greninja is given the opportunity to Spike. This, in turn, will wear down your mons. Now, every time said Pinky wants to come in on Greninja, it will take 12%. And every time you take this 12%, the opposing Greninja may just attack, or switch out to a partner that threatens Pinky, forcing you to switch out to your check to THAT partner, therefore Pinky has not healed off 12%. This is the case for a lot of these SPDef walls/tanks. These two Pinkies are Walls, as they have reliable recovery to try and stay healthy throughout the game.

Goodra/Alolan-Muk - I explained in my post above, and it applies to A-Muk as well. No recovery, easily chipped, exploitable Physical side. These are soft checks at best. If these are your solo Greninja answer, you will lose to any decent Greninja player. Period.

Ferrothorn - If we assume that Greninja only clicks the Water Stab, you might as well call Ferrothorn a counter. UNFORTUNATELY, Dark Pulse is the most preferred move to spam, leading Ferro to take way too much, and not having reliable recovery leads to Ferro getting exploited frequently. Losing Ferro's leftovers is essentially spelling the doom, assuming there is a Grass Type on the opposing side. Coupled with the fact that Magnezone has started to rise in usage again (I believe), Ferro is not guaranteed to be around for the long haul. Just a regular check.

Mantine - This mon is brought up a lot when talking about BB-Greninja, and it's not without reason. It's got humongous SPDef, reliable recovery in Roost, nice HP. There is, however, a very glaring weakness that causes Mantine to be so easily exploited by BB-Greninja Teams. That weakness is Stealth Rocks. If Heavy Duty Boots were in PRO, I would say without a doubt that Mantine is a hard check to Gren, but that's not the case. You can play as well as you want, but the second you swap in Mantine on a Greninja with Rocks, who in turn swaps out to any Mon with an Electric Move, Mantine is as good as dead. Either you save your Mantine, only to get in range of a potential 2HKO by Specs Dark Pulse (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 94-112 (25.2 - 30%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, NOT INCLUDING A 30% CHANCE TO FLINCH, leading to be about a 45% to live.) It won't happen every time, but it is about a coin flip every time, and it's already a struggle to hit 90% moves in Pokemon. It's a soft check due to the fact that it is fairly easy to play around. 

Alomomola - If Substitute wasn't coded still, I could see this mon switching over to a SPDef/Def spread. HOWEVER, if there was one thing that should kill the Fish Overlord's terror on PRO, it was definitely Substitute. This mon cannot do ANYTHING to most Pokemon behind a Sub, as it's offensive presence genuinely doesn't exist. If you cannot abuse this Pokemon's hyper-passive style to generate the most momentum, then no wonder there is a vocal minority that expresses such passionate hate for Stall/FAT. It's a very soft check without running a 1-time-wonder set.

Tentacruel - If there was a sorting chart for walls/tanks, Tentacruel would be at the top of "Slow, Unreliable Recovery," right above Heatran. Tentacruel is somewhat similar to Alomomola in passivity, but Tentacruel can force switches with the likes of Acid Spray, Hazes, and Timid sets with Ice Beam. Tentacruel's downsides are that it doesn't have any recovery aside from Black Sludge, and it is usually a hazard remover with its access to Rapid Spin.. With careful play, sure you can get its health back up slowly, but it's very unreliable and cannot bounce off enough damage to last long. It's also a very soft check.

Mega-Venusaur - Without going full Calm, Venu cannot reliably even check Greninja, and if mons are forced to run a specific set because of 1 mon, then that is restrictive team building, which is a huge factor in why an unhealthy metagame arises. This is proven by my statement in my last post with the Bold Venu Calc. Venu's low PP count is also an issue in being able to stick around. I would say full Calm is a somewhat soft check but I don't really have anything to back it up. 

Anything with Mach Punch - Breloom hates other Grass Types, Infernape falls over to Water Shuriken, Conkeldurr is chipped through various means, such as burn, helmet, weather, hazards, and has very very very limited recovery in how much Drain Punch does. I believe the other mach punchers are irrelevant. 

Scarfers - I explained above, they're unreliable in a 6v6 game.

Weather Sweepers - Gren isn't forced to deal with those, but it also takes 2 Mons to even accomplish this, which takes a couple turns AT LEAST to set it up. 

Many Focus Sash Offensive Mons - Hello, my names are Spikes, Rocks, U-turn, Volt Switch, and Sand, and I'm here to invite you to the Chip Zone!

10 hours ago, Eric66 said:

Lets add back Arena Trap Dugtrio than, beacuse it was the best count rto Chansey/Blissey. Also, if we play in Gen6, lets change back Talonflame's ability, and lets remove Gen7 pokes. 

Ah yes, the Dugtrio is the best counter to Chansey/Blissey. Please, let us add back AT Dugtrio. You'll be crying even more about stall, and you'll be looking real mad afterwards. 

It's nothing official, but I've always said that PRO is a Gen 6 game with Gen 7 Mechanics and a Gen 5 Meta, where rain is up there, people look to balance, and we're scrambling for fighting types. There's a reason Talonflame's Revert was denied by popular vote, and rightfully so. Yeah, it was an almost guaranteed revenge kill for something, but it's also an amazing breaker, which made it near impossible to revenge back with offense. It's role compression was too strong, and therefore nerfed. 
 

The current Gen7 Pokes are not causing any notable disturbance in the meta besides Ninetales-Alolan, and Muk-Alolan for a time(Praise Lord Idkup for Muk Stall). Besides those, the Alolan forms are doing almost nothing in the meta, Kommo-o has made a niche for itself as a nice spdef rocker that can take on most defoggers that do not run Brave Bird(looking at Mandi and Skar), and is a fairly decent check to Aegislash, and Ribombee is probably our best Webs setter in terms of Webs-Only, but dedicated webs teams are very far and very few between. So yeah.
 

11 hours ago, Eric66 said:

This game's ranked system is based on smogon/showdown, since we always followed them. Ash-Greninja is not uber poke, "only" OU. I assume its banned from ladder tournament since it wasnt released before the end of the last season. Saying its inbalanced over and over again doesnt make it inbalanced. There is many, many counter for it that has been here for year(s), so I dont get the point why should it be banned. But than lets start banning every stupid broken mon, like Chansey, Ferrothorn, etc.,, with the same reason "if you dont have answer to it, you are done". I already know its gonna be banned, stallers reached to ban many things already, but atleast they should come up with something else than this, beacuse we could ban half of the mons from pvp with the same reason. 

 

Is there anything official, or telling that this is based on Smogon? Cause as far as I know there isn't. Yes, they're currently the most popular Competitive Format for 6v6 Singles, but due to coding issues and releases, we cannot directly follow it. For most things, probably, we can look to Smogon and see how they handled the situation, as there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.
HOWEVER, as I just said, we cannot directly follow it. Alone, without the Tapus and Magearna, I don't think it's even a possibility that BB-Gren should've been considered for the meta. All you say is "stallers get many things banned" but you have to come to realize that most "stallers" that are being vocal about this are not saying it for the sake of stall. I believe EvilProtag mentioned this before, but Stall only really 6-0's or gets 0-6'd. BB-Greninja doesn't really affect stall in the slightest in terms of raw attacking power. The real losers of this are Balance and Offense, in terms of dealing with BB-Gren. H.O. is also on the fence, but if they move to the team I suggested above, then they'll be able to scoot by, I believe. 

 

12 hours ago, Coono said:

Most of Gren's attacks yes Conk can survive, especially if you can bait dark pulse... but what do you want its a glass cannon, of course it hits hard. Boomburst Exploud doesn't have many good switch ins either, should we ban him too? 

 

Also... Mantine, Slowking, and Ferro, Mega Venu just off the top of my head.

 

There's no one Ash Ninja set that beats everything.

Slowking. For a Dark Type. You're also thinking very short-term with Conk, in a 1v1 scenario. It's not going to work out, explained above. 
 

On 10/9/2020 at 11:13 AM, Coono said:

Im fine with Ash Gren but NO to the tapus they are beyond busted

Honestly, its a pick-your-poison deal. Either no BB-Gren and No Tapus, or both, because the Tapus are the only fairies that have any real shot at handling BB-Gren throughout a game.
HOWEVER, Tapu Lele, in PRO's case, is potential no, unless we decide to shift from our Priority-Focused meta. I honestly think people will quit the game because they will have 3 moves on 4 of their pokemon when Psychic Terrain is on the field.

[Madara]

guys! no ban pls it get kill by mach punch i make epic