Idkup

Regardless of the numbers, being able to bank time for critical turns by moving quickly on other turns is of utmost importance. Per-turn time should be applied as an increment.

- iriz, last week - this post pro community in a nutshell

username: idkup server: gold country: usa

Landorus is slower than Gengar.

Of course Pursuit is viable -- mandatory, I would say, on Weavile. I believe the set you listed is the only viable set, and as such, it would need to be overbearingly powerful for the Pokemon itself to be S-rank. Simply not being deadweight is not enough for a Pokemon to be good in a matchup - are you ever not happy to have Clefable on your team? Rocks will only be up more often than not if you are a better player than your opponent, which we simply cannot assume is the case. I can see your point of view, but I believe you are operating off the assumption that you will win most 50/50s and can consistently outplay your opponent, which cannot be assumed in a resource intended for newer players. Like I said previously, Weavile is very, very good, but it is not metagame defining. With regard to Tornadus-Therian's tentative ranking (which may, admittedly, be too high): - Unlike Weavile, it has three distinct viable sets: Life Orb, Rocky Helmet, and Assault Vest, all of which are at least A-rank on their own. - It is never dead-weight - can Defog attached to Regenerator ever be bad? - The only reliable defensive answer is Zapdos - Tornadus-Therian can get through anything else with the right coverage moves or Taunt. - It has a plethora of utility options, including Knock Off (which it can actually use as utility - trying to remove an item rather than remove an opposing Pokemon with Weavile tends to end with Weavile knocked out. - It fits on every archetype, except Sun - at least personally, I find it more difficult to justify not running Tornadus-Therian than justifying running it, which is often a hallmark of an S-rank Pokemon. - It can generate momentum for free, even through Stealth Rock, with its high speed and the threat of Hurricane (or coverage). - Like Weavile, it is a consistent answer to Gengar that does not sacrifice offensive momentum, which is a rather rare trait.

Excellent post. @Qeight we can release the hostages :^)

I think Mantine in particular loses to Conkeldurr regardless of its EVs, but the Pokemon which can handle Conkeldurr with max Defense will usually run Def EVs.

They will always be trained in Defense. Stall != walls, stall will run Wish Alomomola and nullify anything Conkeldurr tries to do. Azumarill is not a counter, it is a check. Speed is the most important stat in the game, and while priority can mitigate the problem somewhat, being forced to use Mach Punch gives your opponent free momentum.

bump iriz where's the post

Conkeldurr is a coinflip simulator that saps momentum from your own team. Sure, it does a lot of damage... but it fails to get through most common stall cores and is easily punished by anything faster due to its garbage speed and mediocre bulk. While Band Weavile can be difficult to play against for balance teams, its bad matchups against virtually every other archetype in the game make it incredibly difficult to justify moving up (weathers nullifying its speed advantage, stall playing Alomomola and utterly nullifying it, offense spamming priority). Unfortunately hidden by those calcs is the fact that you must choose a move - clicking Pursuit or Ice Shard may kill 1 but donates plenty of momentum to the opponent in return. These situations aside, the Weavile user is more often than not faced with a 50/50 between Knock Off and Icicle Crash - what do you click if your opponent has Rotom-Wash and Clefable available? Further exacerbating this problem is the fact that its soft checks happen to be some of the best and most common Pokemon in the game - Clefable, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, and Azumarill, just to name a few, - it is not difficult to have a team capable of handling Weavile without explicitly considering it. With perfect play, perhaps, Weavile could be considered for S-rank, but if you have that degree of prescience, I would suggest Wall Street instead of wasting time here. Weavile is a phenomenal Pokemon, no doubt, but it does not define the metagame. Things I"m considering: --- Rotom-W S -> A+

Speed Boost Scolipede was primarily used as a Baton Passer as it provides greater defensive utility than the other options (Ninjask, etc.) - for example, it's able to soft-check Gengar and Serperior. Offensive Swords Dance Scolipede sets suffer from a lack of overall power - they are unable to break through common Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Skarmory at all. Blaziken has no such issues with its brilliant offensive stats, and becomes a powerhouse with much less investment required - a single free turn and Blaziken is +2/+1 and threatening to immediately end the game. While it can still be stopped by a select few priority attacks (ex. Azumarill Aqua Jet), it is nigh-impossible to handle defensively and was accordingly banned from Ranked PvP.

I have no strong feelings either way. Regardless of the result, I would like to see a robust procedure set up for suspect testing at this opportunity. Better late than never.

Tornadus-T is broken. However, no one is complaining about it here because it is not the subject of the thread.

Stall is already starting to play Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian. This is simply disinformation - balance suffers most from Landorus-Incarnate existing.

Changelog 5/22/2020: Kamis - Tentative == Tornadus-Therian -> S It fits on everything. The only reliable defensive answer is Zapdos... and praying Hurricane misses. Good luck. Landorus -> A+ While arguably broken, it has yet to warp the metagame around it, and its flexibility is unexplored. However, it is already evident that it is incredibly strong. Tornadus-Therian is answered by Zapdos, a solid Pokemon most teams do not mind running, while the only Pokemon that reliably beats all Landorus sets is... Cresselia. Landorus-Therian -> A+ Landorus-Therian is excellent glue for any team. It has many viable sets: Scarf, one of the best revenge-killers in the game; Swords Dance, one of the few setup-sweepers capable of breaking through Unaware Clefable, and it is one of the best Stealth Rock setters in the game. However, it is held in check by some of the best Pokemon in the metagame, such as Tornadus-Therian and Rotom-Wash. Thundurus / Thundurus-Therian -> A- The potential for these Electric-types is there, but few have experimented with either due to the difficulty of obtaining Hidden Power Ice or Flying in this game. This is the most tentative rating in this update, and is easily subject to change. Tornadus -> C Unless you desperately need Prankster Defog, use Tornadus-Therian. Updates == Togekiss A+ -> A Baton Pass was one of the strongest contexts for Nasty Plot Togekiss. It no longer exists. Volcarona A+ -> A Meta trends have not been kind to Volcarona. While poor utilization is partially to blame for its bad performance, the heavy prevalence of priority is difficult for this moth to handle. Tentacruel A- -> B+ Hazard control is more accessible than ever with the addition of both Landorus-Therian and Tornadus-Therian. Thus, Tentacruel's niche shrinks.

With all due respect, the current policy with regard to PvP has no basis in suspect tests and bears almost no relation to the concept. Suspect tests are conducted to gather information on the Pokemon, move, item, or ability in question. Banning Baton Pass before any consideration is not a suspect test. Asking if a Pokemon that has been available for two weeks but is difficult to access (reroll tickets + ability capsule) should be banned is not a suspect test. There has never been a suspect test on PRO, because half the voters in any given test have never played with nor against the thing being tested. There needs to be a real mechanism for suspect testing, preferably one which artificially inflates the usage of the topic in question - as the things the community at large consider broken are inaccessible to many. If staff prefer to continue to manage the metagame by decree, that is perfectly fine, but neither this nor other recent actions have resembled a suspect test at all.

This is a well-written post, and certainly the most eloquent argument in favor of a ban on Baton Pass yet - that it will become a problem in the future, and thus, we should act preemptively to deal with it before it becomes an issue. However, I disagree on a fundamental level about the properties of uncompetitive strategies and at what point they should be deemed banworthy. We discussed this on Discord yesterday, but I feel the conversation is worth carrying on here. I posited that the current metagame, despite all the complaints, is in fact healthy because a large variety of playstyles are viable. You responded that balance is weak, which is true, and a polarized metagame with a lot of hyper offense and stall is not healthy. I then argued that the weakness of balance had little to do with its ability to win any given match, but rather that it was much more likely to lose to a weaker opponent, as the playstyle is less forcing than offense, which can dictate momentum in the hands of a skilled player, and stall, which can outlast nearly anything with perfect play. This combined with PRO heavily punishing losses to weak players, I argued, is the reason for the poor state of classic balance on ladder. I have a unique and biased perspective on Baton Pass. After all, I built the infamous team that got us here in the first place: https://pokepast.es/6563a3fc106521a2 . Everything that follows is about that team specifically and some quirks that may or may not have been covered by others in this thread already. Firstly, this team was built to be uncompetitive. All of my teams are. Not attempting to limit counterplay is, simply put, a teambuilding mistake. The more chances you give your opponent to play the game, the more chances your opponent has to win. With this in mind, it easily capitalizes on small mistakes from offensive teams, and will never lose to a team that does not have answers nor offensive pressure in competent hands. The most important turn for Baton Pass is Team Preview - against offense, lines ten turns deep can easily be precisely calculated, and forced wins against poorly-constructed teams can be evident from turn 0 and carried out. This certainly sounds broken and banworthy, doesn't it? However, the very predictability which allows a Baton Pass player to take over and annihilate weaker players without concern also makes the team subpar against good players. A good opponent can easily identify the Baton Pass player's win condition on the other side of the board and utterly deny it with minimal preparation - for example, keeping Clefable at above 90% HP so that Manaphy can never get through, barring an errant Ice Beam freeze or critical hit. Ultimately, Baton Pass is another style of Hyper Offense - one that trades off power against other offensive teams for a slightly better balance matchup and dominance against the unprepared. Secondly, the team struggles against some very common threats. Clefable, obviously, can shut down the team's 'uncompetitive' gameplan on its own, forcing it to play like conventional offense until it is eliminated or sufficiently weakened. Ferrothorn can only be handled by Lucario or Flamethrower Togekiss, and Lucario can be worn down very easily, especially if it is played with Garchomp as a partner. The team plays no hazard control, so Stealth Rock makes its life much more difficult. It struggles, as previously mentioned, against offensive teams in general, as it is difficult to dictate your gameplan against a faster team. Contrary to popular belief, however, Rain is a favorable matchup for Baton Pass - Kingdra can be traded off with Garchomp's Sash and generally cannot come in on any attacks, making it easier for a skilled Baton Pass player to set up checkmate than a comparable Rain player. The team has no switch-in to the common Gengar, and must attempt to sweep first if confronted by it. With perfect play, Baton Pass simply does not beat common builds of Stall, such as this frankly less competitive team: https://pokepast.es/bce1e153e8df21b4 (indeed, this team was built after two frustrating games against Gengar on Baton Pass), as it can never get through a healthy Clefable without extreme luck. Thirdly, Baton Pass is not easy to play. It requires accurate calculation from Team Preview and, at the very least, a fundamental understanding of how the team works. Failure to identify your win condition in Team Preview is tantamount to losing. For example, leading Scolipede is almost always a mistake - if you do not win on the spot, you've given over two turns to your opponent while making no threats (Protect and Baton Pass), which your opponent can use more effectively - for example, by setting Stealth Rock and dealing significant damage to the Baton Pass recipient. Baton Pass's broken mechanics turn some otherwise forced wins into 50/50s. My own winrate the first season I played this team was quite abysmal, and I would expect similar for most others. Lastly, it must be considered how far we are willing to go to defend a qualitative standard of 'competitiveness'. Anything involving luck is, by definition, uncompetitive - cheapening the value of prediction. OHKO moves are banned for that reason, but what about Focus Blast? Serene Grace? King's Rock? Air Slash? Hydro Pump? I've even lost to a Shadow Ball SpD drop in the past, should that be banned? If beating unprepared teams consistently is an issue, we must take a serious look at stall, which is capable of posting 90%+ winrates in the right hands, simply because there is nothing to be done unless the stall player makes a mistake or the opponent is explicitly prepared. I, personally, do not think the state of stall is an issue - in the same vein, I do not think Baton Pass beating unprepared players is an issue. Neither Baton Pass nor stall has forced an archetype out of the metagame - instead, both have demanded minor adjustments to contest them, which is in no way unhealthy. Now, will Baton Pass be unhealthy in the future? Almost certainly, yes. Substitute, Magearna, Necrozma, and Z-Crystals, and a working Baton Pass will remove the necessity of carefully removing counters and weakening checks, and at that point, something will have to go. However, banning it now would be tantamount to banning Salamence because of Salamencite, or Mew because of Mewnium Z. This is the wrong time and place for a Baton Pass ban, and there are far more powerful threats to address if there is truly a desire to shatter a healthy metagame using executive action because it is boring. There are still so many facets of this metagame that are insufficiently explored...

Agree in principle, disagree that Sassy is the only set - the suggested natures reflect this. Seismitoad has been moved to C. Swampert has been moved from C- to UNR because there are better options... like Seismitoad.

Changelog (4/29/20): These updates are presented with the caveat that I myself have not been laddering lately, and therefore am currently a secondary source for information on the metagame. Kommo-o UNR -> A-: Kommo-o shows promise with PRO's weak pool of Fighting-types, especially with its access to Stealth Rock, but its lack of power can prove detrimental. Ribombee UNR -> C+: Sticky Web is niche. Very niche. Ribombee is almost indisputably the move's best user, but that isn't enough. Kyurem UNR -> B: Kyurem is an acceptably powerful wallbreaker, but is held back by its weakness to Stealth Rock, poor defensive typing, and inability to get through Chansey. Cresselia UNR -> C: Trick Room is bad. Cresselia is only playable on Trick Room. Therefore, Cresselia is bad. Scolipede A -> B+ Baton Pass being banned means that Scolipede no longer defines an archetype. The Swords Dance set lacks sufficient power compared to other late-game cleaners. Ninetales-Alolan C+ -> A- Aurora Veil becoming legal means that Hail is no longer relegated to meme status. While the optimal build for Aurora Veil has yet to be figured out, the archetype shows clear potential. Uxie Recommended Natures [bold] -> [Relaxed]: Oversight. Trick Room is still bad.

Support: if staff want to build their own metagame, instead of bending the rules we know from gen 7 they can simply pick and choose what Ubers to release here. Also will be fun to read Skymin rage posts.

While we're at it can we unban Shadow Tag and ban Gothitelle instead? It'll let new Pokemon enter the meta! [spoiler=don't open this]Gothorita @ Eviolite Ability: Shadow Tag Sassy Nature 252 HP 4 Def 252 SpD - Charm - Confide - Rest - Taunt [spoiler=don't open this either]Wobbuffet @ Leftovers Ability: Shadow Tag Sassy Nature 252 HP 4 Def 252 SpD - Tickle - Counter - Mirror Coat - Destiny Bond Tyranitar @ Choice Band Ability: Sand Stream Adamant Nature 252 Atk 40 HP 48 SpD 168 Spe - Pursuit - Stone Edge - Crunch - Superpower

This is probably the dumbest suggestion to ever see the light of day. There's no nicer way to put it. Banning Chansey makes more sense. Banning Fearow, as was suggested in jest, makes more sense. With that out of the way: I. Economy Talonflame has been gutted for a long time. Randomly increasing the value of a single Pokemon for no good reason (see later sections) would essentially be giving up on any sort of effective economy where value is persistent. When Talonflame was nerfed, everyone knew it was coming eventually. This is the equivalent of giving Kyurem (if it were tradable) (and likely now Garchomp as well) Dragon Dance from Generation 8, arbitrarily skyrocketing its value. This will be abused, no matter how vigilant moderation staff is. II. Consistency There are so many things that do not work properly on PRO, but most of the differences with Gen 7 standard mechanics are due to the game not being complete (missing Pokemon, moves) or bugs (U-Turn / Volt Switch). The only precedent for this kind of change is Tail Glow Phione, which was questionable in itself but largely ignored due to its uselesness. III. Actual Effects on PvP For reference, Talonflame sets will be listed here: Talonflame @ Choice Band Ability: Gale Wings Adamant Nature 252 Atk / varying HP / varying Spe - Flare Blitz - Brave Bird - U-Turn - Roost / Will-o-Wisp / Steel Wing Talonflame @ Sharp Beak Ability: Gale Wings Adamant Nature 252 Atk / varying HP / varying Spe - Swords Dance - Brave Bird - Flare Blitz - Roost Talonflame @ Leftovers Ability: Gale Wings Careful Nature varying HP / varying Atk / varying SpD / varying Spe - Taunt - Roost - Brave Bird - Bulk Up / Will-o-Wisp This is a fundamentally polarizing Pokemon, and not one that allows for interesting developments in the metagame. Choice Band sets can invalidate current offensive builds on a whim, Swords Dance excels at shattering certain builds of Balance, and Taunt makes for an excellent stallbreaker. Much like Manaphy, which people continue complaining about to this day, Talonflame's list of true answers is short and often can be chipped out by status or hazards. Rotom-Wash and Tyranitar cannot take U-Turn forever, and incorrectly evaluating the set can have devastating effects - Tyranitar hit by Will-o-Wisp, Thunderbolt Clefable nailed by Choice Band Brave Bird. While there is no doubt that Gale Wings Talonflame would not be broken, adding polarizing threats does not make a metagame more fun. We can see this both by looking at what Smogon bans and does not ban, as well as player opinion on PRO as a whole. Recently, Smogon banned Galar Darmanitan and the Dynamax mechanic at large. Galar Darmanitan has never had the presence of Landorus -T in previous generations of OU, so why was it so quickly sent off? While answers to Landorus-T generally come naturally in teambuilding Gen 7 OU, Galar Darmanitan is polarizing. It forces players to run soft checks such as Rotom formes, or subpar Pokemon in hopes to wall it. Talonflame is much the same - while sets like Defensive Garchomp and Defensive Rotom-Wash are strong and popular, they cannot reliably answer Talonflame alone, as it can defeat them over time. Now, let's take a look at the archetypes PRO players love to complain about. 1. Rain It's quite self-evident what rain teams do. You pack a Kingdra answer and a Manaphy answer or you lose. People hate this archetype. 2. Stall Stall is hated because of its ability to drag out games which feel hopeless for the losing side. It's also more complicated to answer than Rain, but just as polarizing nonetheless. Why combat this by bringing back a similarly polarizing and uninteractive Pokemon? There are plenty of more interesting options if bulky Balance truly needs a boost - Victini? Tornadus and Thundurus? Even Volcanion can make Balance's somewhat difficult Rain match-up much, much stronger. Lastly, we've seen this all already. We know what Talonflame does. It would be better to bring in truly new Pokemon rather than unleash an old tyrant once again. tl;dr: don't change Talonflame's value again; be consistent with Gen 7 as much as technical limitations allow, who the heck thinks Talonflame would be a positive influence on the metagame

idkup idkup gold like 14 i think

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