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An unhealthy Battle Bond: The Ash-Greninja case The other thread has quickly gone downhill and I am late to the party, so I decided to make a new thread instead, in hopes of getting more of you to notice this post and maybe read it. From what I have read, I can tell that some people are really underselling Ash-Greninja’s capabilities due to the presence of a few so-called counters and the fact that it does not activate Battle Bond without getting a kill. A Pokémon can still be ban-worthy even if it has checks and counters. Ash-Greninja was still extremely potent in SM/USUM OU. It was even ranked in S-tier for a while, until the final update before the end of USUM OU caused it to drop to A+. Keep in mind that this was in a metagame that was overprepared for it. A quick look at the SM OU Viability Ranking Thread, the USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread, and the most recent USUM OU Viability Rankings can show us the impact that Ash-Greninja has had on the metagame while simultaneously maintaining an A+ (or higher) ranking throughout Gen 7 OU. Some of the most viable Pokémon in SM/USUM OU are able to put in work against it. For example, Toxapex stops it and can at least put down Toxic Spikes to punish it for using Spikes. Magearna can check it and either retaliate with a powerful hit or gain momentum with Volt Switch, although it cannot endlessly switch into it due to the lack of reliable recovery. Ferrothorn can also check it relatively well and trade Spikes with it, but it does not have reliable recovery, either. Faster threats, like Tapu Koko, can force it out before it activates Battle Bond. There are other countermeasures, like Tapu Lele’s Psychic Surge, which summons Psychic Terrain and effectively suspends Ash-Greninja’s Water Shuriken. While this might seem minor at first glance, it can be game-changing, potentially preventing Ash-Greninja from using its powerful priority move against a naturally faster threat or Choice Scarf user. I am not going to go through the entire viability list because it pertains to Smogon; however, it is important to understand the level of centralization caused by Ash-Greninja in Gen 7 OU. If you check some of the analyses from that metagame, you will find that many Pokémon were specifically EV’d to take on Ash-Greninja. Ferrothorn ran a heavily specially defensive spread with 252 HP EVs and 232 Special Defense EVs to ensure not getting 3HKO’d by Choice Specs Greninja’s Dark Pulse at full HP. Amoonguss also ran specially defensive sets, carrying either Black Sludge or even Assault Vest, with sufficient HP and Special Defense to check Ash-Greninja. A Calm nature was used in conjunction with 248 HP EVs and 204 Special Defense EVs to avoid the 2HKO from Choice Specs Ash-Greninja’s Dark Pulse. The Assault Vest set was able to check Ash-Greninja better, but the loss of Spore is suboptimal. Mantine maintained an OU niche by being able to survive the 2HKO from Choice Specs Ash-Greninja’s Dark Pulse if Stealth Rock is on the field. Granted, it was a good check to other threats, such as Volcarona, but it would have even less of a niche/purpose in OU if it did not check Ash-Greninja. Mega Venusaur exclusively ran 68 Special Defense EVs to survive two Dark Pulses from Choice Specs Greninja after Stealth Rock and prevent it from activating Battle Bond. Ash-Greninja forced some Pokémon to run more specially defensive spreads to remain viable; it made a few others viable in OU because they could check it; it hurt the viability of many Pokémon that proved unable to adapt to its presence. This is not surprising, as this is what a top-tier threat does. It was manageable, but it was still one of the best Pokémon throughout all of Gen 7 OU and the level of centralization that it generated clearly shows. There were definitely some gatekeepers, like Magearna and Toxapex, that kept several top-tier threats in check. Without those Pokémon, who knows what USUM OU would look like today? Having said that, PRO is not Showdown. We do not have to ban something for the sole reason that it is/was banned on Pokémon Showdown. Conversely, we do not have to keep something just because it is/was not banned there. Hopefully, PRO can have its own PvP Council and Suspect Test Process at some point. You can read this article to learn more about the former and this one to see how Suspect Tests started. So, why should Ash-Greninja be banned in PRO? 1. We lack sufficient offensive counterplay to Ash-Greninja. Ash-Greninja sports an incredible 399 speed tier, which outpaces the entire (viable) metagame. Even pre-Battle Bond transformation, it is still really fast, boasting 377 speed. While it is slower than Weavile, pre-Battle Bond Greninja does not get Pursuit-trapped as easily as its Protean counterpart, thanks to maintaining its Dark typing, thus effectively removing one of the few ways of limiting it on an offensive level. Either way, you cannot just let Battle Bond Greninja get a kill to revenge kill it with Weavile, since Ash-Greninja outspeeds it. Even if we had everything that Gen 7 OU had, not many (viable) Pokémon would be naturally faster, but we would, at the very least, have more Megas: Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, Mega Alakazam, Mega Aerodactyl, etc. You can take a look at the USM OU Speed Tiers and the newer version of that list. Offensively speaking, we would also be able to take advantage of Terrain boosts (e.g., Psychic Terrain to block Water Shuriken, Grassy Terrain for passive recovery…) and Pokémon that benefit from Terrains in general (e.g., Unburden Hawlucha with Electric/Grassy/Psychic Seed). Even small things like Tapu Koko outspeeding Greninja before its Battle Bond transformation matter because they can add up. Moreover, we would have more options for Choice Scarf users, like Keldeo, Kartana, and whatnot, as well as more Pokémon with strong priority moves, such as Mega Pinsir. As of right now, many of the viable Choice Scarf users, most notably Landorus-T, get destroyed by a Choice Specs-boosted Water Shuriken. Ash-Greninja does resist common priority moves, too, namely Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch, and Aqua Jet. I would also like to add something about the Mach Punch myth, that is, the assumption that Ash-Greninja will merrily let itself die to Mach Punch. If the priority users that are able to KO it take some chip, they run the risk of dying to a Choice Specs-boosted Water Shuriken. If you happen to let Battle Bond Greninja get a kill, you are potentially looking at something as absurd as this in rain: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr in Rain: 354-423 (100.8 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO. That is a guaranteed OHKO on Conkeldurr with a neutral priority move. Finally, the Pokémon that would be able to offensively check Battle Bond Greninja by switching into it and threatening to KO it are always scarce, but this is further exacerbated in PRO, since there are still a few missing pieces (e.g., Magearna, Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, Primarina…). Running a specially defensive Breloom that can get obliterated on the switch by a rain-boosted, Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump is not acceptable. The same goes for Assault Vest Azumarill, Black Sludge Toxicroak, Roost Hydreigon, specially defensive Kommo-o, any bulky Mega Gyarados, etc. This hurts the offensive efficiency of these Pokémon and does not even help them against unusual coverage moves or Protean Greninja. Chansey offense is also not the answer, because offensive teams optimally need to keep up momentum and pressure. Overall, even in an ideal setup, we would need as many offensive countermeasures as possible. We simply do not have sufficient offensive counterplay to Ash-Greninja, that is, a satisfactory amount of naturally faster Pokémon, Choice Scarf users, Priority users, and offensive Pokémon able to switch into it at least once. 2. Ash-Greninja can easily take advantage of its defensive switch-ins or just wear them down over time. Some of Ash-Greninja’s defensive checks cannot survive if Dark Pulse flinches them once (e.g., Gastrodon, Mantine…), while those with no reliable recovery cannot outheal the damage (e.g., Leech Seed Protect Ferrothorn) or heal up forever (e.g., Synthesis Mega Venusaur). Prior to activating Battle Bond, Greninja sometimes only needs minimal chip or support (in the form of Stealth Rock and Spikes) to achieve 2HKOs on would-be defensive checks. In fact, Greninja can set up hazards on the defensive switch-ins that it forces, due to them being Spikes bait most of the time. Many of Ash-Greninja’s most reliable defensive checks are forced to recover whenever they switch into one of its attacks, to ensure that they can check it throughout the match, thus being forced into a passive loophole that can easily be taken advantage of. In the end, Ash-Greninja can still make progress against these defensive countermeasures, either by setting up Spikes and wearing down the opposition or by softening up said Pokémon and allowing one of its teammates to take advantage of them. We still lack some key defensive checks that are able to reset Ash-Greninja’s progress (e.g., Tapu Fini can semi-reliably switch into Ash-Greninja and use Defog to remove Spikes). Furthermore, running a passive Pokémon like Chansey on offensive builds – or builds that suffer from momentum loss – is something that Ash-Greninja and its teammates always appreciate and effectively capitalize on. Aside from its standard STAB moves, Ash-Greninja can run viable coverage options. For example, pre-Battle Bond Ice Beam has a chance to 2HKO Assault Vest Tangrowth. The same applies to Amoonguss unless it carries an Assault Vest. Hazards turn these rolls into guaranteed KOs. Overall, while we do have some defensive countermeasures to Ash-Greninja, they are not satisfactory enough, because they do not prevent it from making steady progress throughout the match. 3. As a result, Ash-Greninja can slowly but steadily make consistent progress throughout the match, either until it is able to activate Battle Bond and sweep on its own or until it has sufficiently softened up the opposing team for one of its teammates. It is also hard to undo Ash-Greninja’s progress in PRO due to the nature of the (limited) aforementioned offensive and defensive counterplay. The combination of Ash-Greninja’s speed, its access to Water Shuriken, and its sheer power makes it an extremely punishing Pokémon if it ever manages to activate Battle Bond. In fact, if Ash-Greninja gets ahead, it makes comebacks exceedingly difficult for many teams. It is both good at gaining an advantage and keeping it or furthering it, due to the nature of its toolkit and the progress-making advantages that naturally come with it. 4. Ash-Greninja promotes passive (counter)play. It is true that the best way to handle Ash-Greninja is preventing it from activating Battle Bond in the first place. However, this goes both ways, as it heavily pressures the opponent into never allowing it to get a kill. This effectively means that its checks – some of which lack reliable recovery – are under extreme pressure to stay alive. The opponent can also be forced to keep an otherwise useless Pokémon alive even if it is at low HP, just for the sake of preventing Ash-Greninja from activating its Battle Bond, thus allowing it to dent the whole team instead. Given the lack of offensive countermeasures in PRO, Ash-Greninja can effectively force passivity due to the constant threat of a Battle Bond transformation and that of a subsequent sweep. This shows both throughout a match and in the teambuilder, where its strain, in conjunction with the limited counterplay, can force you to run Chansey, Protect Ferrothorn, and even some otherwise unenviable – not necessarily unviable – Pokémon, such as Mantine, or some unviable Pokémon, like Poliwrath. In a way, the mere presence of Ash-Greninja dictates a specific risk/reward scenario that forces the opponent to think twice about making risky plays. As a result, Ash-Greninja becomes really good at forcing passive patterns that can be capitalized on or taken advantage of with low-risk double switches. For example, you can gauge your opponent’s reaction once or twice to accustom them to a specific behavior before unexpectedly breaking the pattern (e.g., using Dark Pulse on the Chansey switch-in, switching out, using Dark Pulse on another Chansey switch-in, switching out again, then switching to something that can beat Chansey or take advantage of it instead of using Dark Pulse a third time). This is, of course, not exclusive to Ash-Greninja; however, it is further enhanced by the favorable risk/reward situation that it creates, the limited counterplay currently available in PRO, the necessity to run more than 1 answer for it, and the fact that it requires little to no team support to break through its so-called checks. 5. After activating Battle Bond, Ash-Greninja gets access to one of the most powerful priority moves in the game in Water Shuriken. Being only resisted by 3 types in Water, Grass, and Dragon (which are all hit by Dark Pulse), Water Shuriken is a devastating priority move, further boosted by Ash-Greninja’s incredible 153 base Special Attack. It is even more powerful in rain (cf. the earlier calculation against Conkeldurr at full HP) but does not need it to deal an obscene amount of damage to neutral targets. No one wants to read a wall of calculations, so let me just put things into perspective to give you a good representation of how powerful Ash-Greninja’s Choice Specs-boosted Water Shuriken is. After Stealth Rock, Ash-Greninja has a chance to OHKO Bisharp (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 225-264 (83 - 97.4%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and Gengar (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 210-252 (80.1 - 96.1%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) with a neutral priority Water move outside of rain. Offensive teams are most pressured into making sure that they are always out of range of a Water Shuriken sweep, because they have the hardest time preventing Greninja from activating Battle Bond. Ash-Greninja can use its strong priority move to either revenge kill somewhat healthy Pokémon with relative ease or clean up late game, as if having 399 speed in conjunction with those offensive stats in PRO’s current meta was not already enough! 6. Ash-Greninja forms unhealthy cores with other Pokémon and enables them by softening up their common switch-ins. These include (but are not limited to) Pokémon that appreciate hazards (e.g., Aegislash), Pokémon that can deter their removal (e.g., Defiant users like Bisharp and Thundurus), Pokémon that can beat Ash-Greninja’s usual checks (e.g., Mega Gallade, Breloom…), Pokémon that share checks with it and can overwhelm them with its help (e.g., Heatran, Gengar, Tornadus-T…), and even Pokémon that can bait in Ash-Greninja’s checks and cripple them (e.g., Knock Off Thundurus, Solar Beam Heatran…). 7. Ash-Greninja has access to Spikes, a move with limited distribution, which can immensely help it (and its teammates) in achieving important KOs. Spikes also allow Ash-Greninja to capitalize on the many switches that it forces to punish passive plays. In general, setting up even 1 layer of Spikes can go a long way. 8. The presence of Ash-Greninja makes Protean Greninja even better. Protean Greninja is actually able to beat many of the Pokémon commonly run to check Ash-Greninja. For example, it can surprise Ferrothorn with HP Fire, Gastrodon with HP Grass or Grass Knot, Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss with Extrasensory, Assault Vest Azumarill and Assault Vest Tangrowth with Gunk Shot, etc. More concretely, if you are running something like specially defensive Ferrothorn to better your match-up against Ash-Greninja, you are suboptimally equipped to handle Low Kick Protean Greninja. If you overprepare for Ash-Greninja, you leave yourself more vulnerable to Protean Greninja. 9. Ash-Greninja does not have to exclusively run a single set to be as efficient as possible in PRO’s metagame. Even in Gen 7 OU, some people used Waterium Z as a one-time nuke to a would-be Ash-Greninja check like Magearna, while also retaining the ability to switch moves. The Choice Specs set is the best because Ash-Greninja does not really need anything other than 2 STAB moves, a priority move, and either Spikes or extra coverage (e.g., Ice Beam), depending on the rest of the team. No matter what, the Choice Specs set is always effective at what it does, but expecting the same moves every single time can occasionally be a costly mistake. However, in PRO, we do not have the luxury to scout for uncommon or unusual options anyway. 10. Unlike what many people claim, Greninja is not extremely weak before activating Battle Bond. With Stealth Rock and just 1 layer on Spikes, it has a chance to 2HKO Blissey in rain: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Rain: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery. Granted, Blissey will almost always be inferior to Chansey, at least until Heavy-Duty Boots become a thing (if they ever do). To put things into perspective, pre-Battle Bond Greninja has 103 base Special Attack and Kingdra has 95 base Special Attack. Both Pokémon typically run Choice Specs. 11. While Ash-Greninja is, by no means, a bulky Pokémon, we cannot pretend that it is frail to the point of dying to any attack in existence. Most of the time, you will need to attack it twice to kill it. It can survive +2 Sucker Punch from Adamant Life Orb Bisharp (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 218-257 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Extreme Speed from Choice Band Dragonite (252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 203-239 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), +6 Aqua Jet from Belly Drum Azumarill (+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 219-258 (76.8 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), U-turn from Choice Scarf Landorus-T (252 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 228-270 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Hydro Pump from Choice Specs Kingdra in the rain (252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja in Rain: 237-279 (83.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and the list goes on. 12. Ash-Greninja is overcentralizing to an unhealthy extent. It forces you to run a very limited pool of Pokémon that are able to check it. This point will prove truer if Ash-Greninja ends up not being banned, thus inevitably causing an unhealthy amount of overcentralization around Pokémon that it does not even necessarily lose to (cf. points 1 and 2). 13. The existence of Ash-Greninja hurts the viability of multiple playstyles. This is another point that would prove truer in the long term. Ash-Greninja, similarly to Protean Greninja, dismantles offensive builds. Over time, the metagame was able to (healthily or unhealthily) adapt to the latter; however, it is currently unable to deal with the former. Ash-Greninja is weak to fewer priority moves than Protean Greninja, since its typing always remains the same. Unlike its Protean counterpart, Ash-Greninja has 399 speed, which allows it to outpace Weavile. Moreover, as a Dark type, it is less prone to Pursuit trap. Unlike Protean Greninja, Ash-Greninja can make good use of Water Shuriken to circumvent some of its would-be revenge killers with minimal chip. It also forces offensive teams to modify their builds accordingly. For example, after a Dragon Dance, Dragonite can only outspeed Ash-Greninja with a Jolly nature while being unable to OHKO it with +1 Extreme Speed with an Adamant nature. A Jolly nature effectively entails a noticeable drop in power, which offensive teams require a lot. While Ash-Greninja can fit on balanced and bulky offensive builds, those still have a hard time dealing with it in general due to its ability to wear down or muscle through standard defensive backbones, while not caring about their offensive cores as much. Stall is able to handle most Ash-Greninja sets by somewhat reliably preventing it from activating Battle Bond thanks to being able to afford the momentum drain that comes from running Pokémon like Chansey and Alomomola, although it must be said that Ash-Greninja can still find a way to put down Spikes and make progress against those kinds of teams. Due to the overwhelming arguments against it, Ash-Greninja should be banned from PvP. This one is not even a close call. In my opinion, Battle Bond Greninja should be banned until we have almost everything else from Gen 7 OU. I truly believe that the sole addition of Toxapex would not be enough to make it less problematic, as this would result in heavy overcentralization. Being forced to pick one or two Pokémon from a very limited pool of options is unhealthy. We need as much offensive and defensive counterplay to Ash-Greninja as possible.

Stall is a playstyle. Get over it. This man typed a whole paragraph for you to understand, which gives the rundown on why Ash-Gren is unhealthy for the meta, regardless of whether this meta is "healthy" in general, and you reply with a 1-liner that doesn't pertain to the discussion. If you're argument is "people will use stall regardless," then maybe you should start adapting to the meta I'll get right to the chase. There's only 1 set that BB Gren should ever run, and that one set is the set I will be referencing here. The team style that suffers the most from this is Balance. Greninja excels at exuding offensive pressure, and BB Greninja sets rewards the user with spikes. Spike stacking, in turn, will force X mon to defog or spin, which forces a loss of momentum. Gren and its team starts to take advantage of this by upping the momentum for the user. Key mons in balance cores, such as Heatran, whose only recovery revolves around Leftovers (and in the case of Gen7, Grassy Terrain), despise hazards. It limits how many times they can come in to check the mons they are suppose to. Now, as I'm sure you're aware of, Regen cores that are available to PRO, such as Tangrowth/Amoonguss + Tornadus-T + Slowbro do not contain a sufficient enough of defensive presence to actually handle Dark Pulse spam with any hazard up: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 139-165 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery (Amoonguss will most likely not run full spdef, but this is a Best Case for Amoonguss.) 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 120-142 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 121-144 (33.4 - 39.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock 1. The problem is that BB Gren, after getting an eventual kill on any unboosted mon, if not the lead, you will be forced to run at least 2 extreme speed mons just for Ash-Gren. Water Shuriken does too much to any current H.O. team, and Banded Dnite is only as good as what you can hit with it. If you extreme speed the Gren, cool, but will any decent player allow you to do that? Anything after that just becomes a lot of theory which is way too unreliable to fall back on. Scarf Pokes are by no means reliable if you are assuming a 6v6 and not a 1v6. It's really player-dependent, and any loss of momentum, being forced to switch out on a wrong move in the mid-game should transition into a loss. I hear you hate the rain meta. Well, let me tell you, rain will become one of the most dominate teams in the meta, and BB Gren being around just makes it worse. So, you know how Chansey is suppose to sit in front of Greninja? It'd be a shame if it were paired with the best Swift Swimmer Mega Pert, one of the best Knock Off users in Tornadus-T, the demonic Ferrothorn, the catalyst Pelipper, and a 6th mon of your choice, where popular options are Manaphy and Azumarill, while other popular options, such as Magearna and Kartana, are not available. If you want to compare Gen7 OU AT ALL to PRO, you will realize that once Mega Swampert comes out, we will have Gen 7 Z-less Rain. This is a huge problem because PRO is not equipped to deal with this team at all, without the meta becoming a clash between Rain and Rain-Counter teams. There's a reason Rain in Gen 7 had 5 locked slots in the team, and if you want to advocate for that, be my guest, but you're defending one of the things you have stated that you do not like about PRO. 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 152 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr in Rain: 354-423 (91 - 108.7%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Scizor-Mega in Rain: 183-219 (53.3 - 63.8%) -- approx. 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 219-258 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes 2. Goodra doesn't get recovery, needs extensive team support, and its Physically squishy side is easily exploited. There's nothing else to say. 3. How easily is easily, when Bold Venu, which I would argue is the popular set of PRO now, does not appreciate any chip whatsoever, which is kind of a problem if you need it to check other Mons, but require full HP to handle Greninja with 1 spike up: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 135-159 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 189-223 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO In a perfect game state, I would agree that Bold Venusaur-Mega defeats Greninja 1v1. But unless you achieve that perfect game stat consistently, Gren will be taking advantage of the fact that Venusaur cannot swap into it, and kill other mons to break for its team. 4. Firstly, you named one of five Priority moves that Greninja resists. I'm going to leave it at that. Secondly, H.O. teams will be forced to change to handle BB Gren variants if you do not want to struggle with it as much. Currently, you can have some variance between your leads, Mega, and mons in the back, as not everyone has access to a usable BB Gren now. By using an example of some pokes that Stavd gave, we can assume Future H.O. will be comprised of about 2 Suicide leads, and about 6 Pokemon to choose from in the back, including Mega: Garchomp, Azelf (Leads) Lucario, Breloom, Azumarill[BD], Dnite[DD], Mega Gyara, Mega Scizor (Setup) Azumarill, Dnite (Choiced) Any other current H.O. lead is weak to Water, and therefore has the potential to die to Water Shuriken, which would leave the H.O. player with no Rocks, an Ash-Gren to deal with, and down a sack: So unless you want to have the meta of H.O. be a guessing game, or a game of Roulette, I would assume these mons as H.O. leads will die. As for the rest of the H.O. Squad, you want to claim as many kills as possible before going to the next mon, or setting up for a late-game mon to clean/sweep, by getting chip with your other mons. Which means you will be trading a lot of pokes, and taking damage in the process. Here is some food for thought on the type of damage Ash Gren does (We'll assume no spikes, as if you setup on BB Gren with anything you are asking to lose the game). Calc Dump: As a closer, all this thing does is eat [butt] and is a boon for players with a somewhat extensive knowledge of the game and its mechanics. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk, and I hope this helps people realize that having Clefable or Conkeldurr as our best Dark Resist makes Ash Gren a ticking time bomb, except it doesn't wait for the time to go down, or for you to cut the wrong wire. It decides when to blow. EDIT: Shoutouts to Cyanirl for being my Calc Bot. I told him what I needed as I thought, and he pumped them out for me

A quick preface. By "you" I mostly mean as a general sense, and not any particular 1 person for all of these responses to the thread. Well, we just got a handy dandy tool to counteract walls and tanks called Substitute! We've also had Taunt for quite a while now, so I'm here quoting you to inform you about them, so that you may not think of it as a weakness! We do not even have everything from Gen 5 that would possibly be legal in our metagame, it was a mistake period to add Ash-Greninja alone. For starters, we have a pitiful amount of viable Dark resists, which the Tapus, alongside Magearna, were all amazing at. Toxapex is a defensive demon, sure, but it is by far unkillable. It's offensive presence is non existent, making anything that resists water Sub and proceed to abuse the fact that Pex cannot do anything back. Also, if you're gonna suggest something paired with Toxapex, you shoulda thought about the fact that they are both weak to Electric, and Magnezone single handedly beats both 1v1. I think the community needs to understand between the difference between a counter and a check. A COUNTER is something that will 95% of the time ALWAYS come in on said Pokemon, and threaten to kill it immediately. A CHECK is something that can come in more often than not, but under certain circumstances will lose to said Pokemon. Chansey/Blissey - They are a very hard check to Greninja. In a 1v1 scenario, Dark Pulse flinches aside, they will defeat Greninja 1v1. However, every time you want to switch in Chansey or Blissey, Greninja is given the opportunity to Spike. This, in turn, will wear down your mons. Now, every time said Pinky wants to come in on Greninja, it will take 12%. And every time you take this 12%, the opposing Greninja may just attack, or switch out to a partner that threatens Pinky, forcing you to switch out to your check to THAT partner, therefore Pinky has not healed off 12%. This is the case for a lot of these SPDef walls/tanks. These two Pinkies are Walls, as they have reliable recovery to try and stay healthy throughout the game. Goodra/Alolan-Muk - I explained in my post above, and it applies to A-Muk as well. No recovery, easily chipped, exploitable Physical side. These are soft checks at best. If these are your solo Greninja answer, you will lose to any decent Greninja player. Period. Ferrothorn - If we assume that Greninja only clicks the Water Stab, you might as well call Ferrothorn a counter. UNFORTUNATELY, Dark Pulse is the most preferred move to spam, leading Ferro to take way too much, and not having reliable recovery leads to Ferro getting exploited frequently. Losing Ferro's leftovers is essentially spelling the doom, assuming there is a Grass Type on the opposing side. Coupled with the fact that Magnezone has started to rise in usage again (I believe), Ferro is not guaranteed to be around for the long haul. Just a regular check. Mantine - This mon is brought up a lot when talking about BB-Greninja, and it's not without reason. It's got humongous SPDef, reliable recovery in Roost, nice HP. There is, however, a very glaring weakness that causes Mantine to be so easily exploited by BB-Greninja Teams. That weakness is Stealth Rocks. If Heavy Duty Boots were in PRO, I would say without a doubt that Mantine is a hard check to Gren, but that's not the case. You can play as well as you want, but the second you swap in Mantine on a Greninja with Rocks, who in turn swaps out to any Mon with an Electric Move, Mantine is as good as dead. Either you save your Mantine, only to get in range of a potential 2HKO by Specs Dark Pulse (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 94-112 (25.2 - 30%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, NOT INCLUDING A 30% CHANCE TO FLINCH, leading to be about a 45% to live.) It won't happen every time, but it is about a coin flip every time, and it's already a struggle to hit 90% moves in Pokemon. It's a soft check due to the fact that it is fairly easy to play around. Alomomola - If Substitute wasn't coded still, I could see this mon switching over to a SPDef/Def spread. HOWEVER, if there was one thing that should kill the Fish Overlord's terror on PRO, it was definitely Substitute. This mon cannot do ANYTHING to most Pokemon behind a Sub, as it's offensive presence genuinely doesn't exist. If you cannot abuse this Pokemon's hyper-passive style to generate the most momentum, then no wonder there is a vocal minority that expresses such passionate hate for Stall/FAT. It's a very soft check without running a 1-time-wonder set. Tentacruel - If there was a sorting chart for walls/tanks, Tentacruel would be at the top of "Slow, Unreliable Recovery," right above Heatran. Tentacruel is somewhat similar to Alomomola in passivity, but Tentacruel can force switches with the likes of Acid Spray, Hazes, and Timid sets with Ice Beam. Tentacruel's downsides are that it doesn't have any recovery aside from Black Sludge, and it is usually a hazard remover with its access to Rapid Spin.. With careful play, sure you can get its health back up slowly, but it's very unreliable and cannot bounce off enough damage to last long. It's also a very soft check. Mega-Venusaur - Without going full Calm, Venu cannot reliably even check Greninja, and if mons are forced to run a specific set because of 1 mon, then that is restrictive team building, which is a huge factor in why an unhealthy metagame arises. This is proven by my statement in my last post with the Bold Venu Calc. Venu's low PP count is also an issue in being able to stick around. I would say full Calm is a somewhat soft check but I don't really have anything to back it up. Anything with Mach Punch - Breloom hates other Grass Types, Infernape falls over to Water Shuriken, Conkeldurr is chipped through various means, such as burn, helmet, weather, hazards, and has very very very limited recovery in how much Drain Punch does. I believe the other mach punchers are irrelevant. Scarfers - I explained above, they're unreliable in a 6v6 game. Weather Sweepers - Gren isn't forced to deal with those, but it also takes 2 Mons to even accomplish this, which takes a couple turns AT LEAST to set it up. Many Focus Sash Offensive Mons - Hello, my names are Spikes, Rocks, U-turn, Volt Switch, and Sand, and I'm here to invite you to the Chip Zone! Ah yes, the Dugtrio is the best counter to Chansey/Blissey. Please, let us add back AT Dugtrio. You'll be crying even more about stall, and you'll be looking real mad afterwards. It's nothing official, but I've always said that PRO is a Gen 6 game with Gen 7 Mechanics and a Gen 5 Meta, where rain is up there, people look to balance, and we're scrambling for fighting types. There's a reason Talonflame's Revert was denied by popular vote, and rightfully so. Yeah, it was an almost guaranteed revenge kill for something, but it's also an amazing breaker, which made it near impossible to revenge back with offense. It's role compression was too strong, and therefore nerfed. The current Gen7 Pokes are not causing any notable disturbance in the meta besides Ninetales-Alolan, and Muk-Alolan for a time(Praise Lord Idkup for Muk Stall). Besides those, the Alolan forms are doing almost nothing in the meta, Kommo-o has made a niche for itself as a nice spdef rocker that can take on most defoggers that do not run Brave Bird(looking at Mandi and Skar), and is a fairly decent check to Aegislash, and Ribombee is probably our best Webs setter in terms of Webs-Only, but dedicated webs teams are very far and very few between. So yeah. Is there anything official, or telling that this is based on Smogon? Cause as far as I know there isn't. Yes, they're currently the most popular Competitive Format for 6v6 Singles, but due to coding issues and releases, we cannot directly follow it. For most things, probably, we can look to Smogon and see how they handled the situation, as there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. HOWEVER, as I just said, we cannot directly follow it. Alone, without the Tapus and Magearna, I don't think it's even a possibility that BB-Gren should've been considered for the meta. All you say is "stallers get many things banned" but you have to come to realize that most "stallers" that are being vocal about this are not saying it for the sake of stall. I believe EvilProtag mentioned this before, but Stall only really 6-0's or gets 0-6'd. BB-Greninja doesn't really affect stall in the slightest in terms of raw attacking power. The real losers of this are Balance and Offense, in terms of dealing with BB-Gren. H.O. is also on the fence, but if they move to the team I suggested above, then they'll be able to scoot by, I believe. Slowking. For a Dark Type. You're also thinking very short-term with Conk, in a 1v1 scenario. It's not going to work out, explained above. Honestly, its a pick-your-poison deal. Either no BB-Gren and No Tapus, or both, because the Tapus are the only fairies that have any real shot at handling BB-Gren throughout a game. HOWEVER, Tapu Lele, in PRO's case, is potential no, unless we decide to shift from our Priority-Focused meta. I honestly think people will quit the game because they will have 3 moves on 4 of their pokemon when Psychic Terrain is on the field.

+1 I really think it was a BIG mistake to release Ash-Gren so early in our current metagame. First of all, let's talk about its "checks" and "counters". Pokemons such as Chansey, Goodra, Mantine, SpDef Azumarill, Sassy Poliwrath (lol) or AV Tangrowth are supposed to switch-in quite easily onto opposing Ash-Greninjas IF its not evolved yet. And we should also be aware that most of the list mentioned above cannot check Gren + Rain, which is a popular playstyle with it. The first problem we should be aware of is how much meta-centralizing this pokemon is. Let's take a look at the US/UM OU meta : Greninja is one if not the best pokemon in the entire tier and every players had to adapt their teams and playstyle accordingly. Pokemons such as AV / Careful Tapu Bulu, Toxapex and AV Magearna are considered as "dedicated " checks to it. We dont have any of these ig right now, which makes Ash-Gren a lot stronger than it is already. Another thing to mention is that Gren is also incredibly strong WITHOUT Battle Bond. Protean was and is still one of the best abilities in the entire game. In fact, Protean Greninja is still banned to this day in ORAS OU. (the suspect test ended with 81% supermajority votes for the ban) And you have to be aware that Protean was banned in a metagame where Ash-gren didnt exist. Most of the "checks" I mentioned above are getting wrecked by Protean Gren. The combo of the two "sets" on Gren turns it into an absolute monster and is VERY unhealthy for the current PRO metagame. You could say that both abilities were allowed in gen7 OU, but we're talking about a totally different metagame where most of the strong pokemons of the tier are considered as "little ubers". I also think that most PvPers knows that Protean Gren is already a big threat right now. Now let's talk about "counters". Azumarill and Keldeo can revenge kill it pretty easily, but they can't switch-in on it. (and Keldeo isn't in the game) Conkeldurr and others mach punch users can OHKO it IF Gren is not locked on Water Shuriken, otherwise they have to be full HP. Some scarf users can also revenge it pretty easily. " So it's not that big of a deal right ? " Problem is, if a good player is playing Ash-Gren, he will use a strong teambuild around it in order to erase Gren's checks and counter. It will lead to players who are FORCED to run dedicated checks and counters just to check a single mon in a meta where a lot of pokemons are already quite threatening. We can compare this to the Zygarde's issue in US/UM OU. This pokemon was quite similar to Ash-Gren in our current metagame. Players HAD to use dedicated checks and counter because otherwise they would be instantly 6-0 by it. This pokemon became way too meta-centralizing and Smogon decided to ban it. I'm 100% for the ban, this is not a pokemon designed for a metagame such as PRO in its current state. (even Protean Gren should be banned imo, but this is not the topic) I suggest to ban it until the release of the 7G. Thanks for reading Keabu

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Did you even read the thread? Seems like you just came here to point your opinion without even willing to read the information.

I honestly can't wait for people to not know how terrains work when they come out lol. It's gonna be fun watching people spam prio in psychic terrain or try to spore a mon in electric terrain and wonder why it's not working .

yeah dude idk dude, eric seems to be the only guy who knows what hes talking about, keep going at em champ, these stall noobheads think they can outsmart you lol, they are so wrong like hello? its clear they wanna keep their chanseys and skarms safe, they cant leave their houses without them, lol cowards, i wish i could meet them in pvp with my mach punch conk and av azus and destroy them, but they all stop pvping as soon as i go online cause they are all scared lol.

Ya know i see a lot of people flaming stall here for some reason. When ashe-greninja excell at killing offense, esp hyper offense. So basically if i can explain it so people can stop misunderstand. This mon is rly rly good at killing teams with out dedicated checks such as (chansey...and poliwrath?). Its rly easy for ashe-gren to click stuffs and just kills. You guys say that pre-battle bond its weak, well guess where its easy to get kills? h.o team members. ----> Which means offense and esp h.o will suffer. Which are the stuffs that actually try to break stall. So all you stall haters here defending ashe-gren, you guys are actually defending the very stuffs that are activly hunting stall-breakers . Ironic xD. This is literly a "why-do-you-hit-yourself" thing. If anything stall players would be the one who suffers the least, because guess what team comp benefit the most from chansey? stall.....XD. I know , i know. For some of you after reading this your mental will explode with this new revelation. Praise me im here to save pvp once again from all you sinners.

Firstly, ash gren is not a stall breaker. Stop calculating on every fking stall then call this mons useless. it's incredible for its super high speed and having one of the strongest pior move in-game with an ability to break through sash. Ash gren is a nightmare for teams which don't have a clearly answer for it or offensive teams because gren or ash gren already one of the fastest pokemon viable at pvp rn. And since how fast this pokemon is, claiming a kill is not that hard for it. So let's talk about its own counter at the current meta. I believe 3 most common checks for it rn are chansey, ferro and mega venu (I'm not talking about its best counter, i'm talking about the most common threat to ash gren). Venu is a good check but it still can die to dark pulse with 0 leftover recovery, it's definitely hard to keep this mons always at full. And mega Venu itself is not that hard to find a switch in, you can't really punish OP with venu. The same go for chansey with predictable move set. Like chansey is its best counter but you lets OP a chance to bring out bigger threat to your team or a chance to set up hazzard/defog.. while ferro can actually punish ash gren by stacking spikes or cheap it down while using U-turn. But you also might get risk of potential hp fire protein greninja instead of BB, and I guess it's fair enough for both. Ash gren might find itself a little hard to break through some team but it is doing its best as a sweeper. Its definitely find it place in some volt-turn or rain team latter on. And mega scizor is best partner for it rn which both are kinda busted in this meta. So the question is "Do we need to ban this?". I would say give it more time to for new mega to come. Ash gren at this meta is not an insta win, it's so far to compare with king shield aegislash meta. it will stay at the highest competitive level but not OP at all. Like if you ban all the current best pokemon, meta could be even become more broken with new best pokemon replaced and you never have chance to find the meta which you like the most.

What do you all think?

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I find it slightly annoying that the battle log is only in orange for both your opponent and you (except when the opponent switches out a pokemon there name will be blue see image as example) It would be slightly better with ally/foe coloring as in Blue for all your pokemon's moves/switches and orange for all the opponents so when in battle you can quickly scim to whichever you want to see very minor suggestion i know Thanks for reading!

There are currently Black colored Angel Wings in the Coin Shop that do match the theme as well if you are interested.

+1 I swear 90% of the -1 for the ban of Ash Greninja are people who don't understand how bad this pokemon is for the metagame and how much of a detriment it is for hyper offense and balance players than it is for stall players whilst the rest are people who invested their own money into acquiring one and don't want to lose out. It's ironic how many people are trying to defend a Pokemon that hurts them more than others in the sense that this Pokemon runs train on h.o. and balance teams.

Start: 1,8M Insta: 4M Time: 24 Hours Min. raise: 100k CC's as 350k Rerrolls as 700k nature ones as 350k The pokemon is on Silver Server

bro when you will be online

Start

https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/65778-restore-pokemon-megathread/ heres the link to the thread you need to make a post in

I can see them now You're welcome and best of luck for selling!

Hi there! Thanks for letting me know, it should be fixed now had to re-upload the images. Thank you!

ty xd

Not much more to say, I think you honestly could have gotten an equal point across with 3519 less words and just said ban and it would have the same effect and less of your time wasted on people who are hard stuck on the topic. I think the real topic should be the continuing theme of a lacking PvP council. Very well spoken and as always a pleasure to read for the hope you ever make a single mistake (grats you escaped again bud lol).

haha ash gren brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr message.txt

Ngdevil b.o 3,2m

Pseudo dans le jeu : Inzanemofo Temps de jeu : 236 h Âge : 26 Quelques mots sur vous : Grand fan de jeux vidéos, anime et bien évidemment Pokémon. J'ai commencé PRO en 2018, mais je m'y suis remis plus sérieusement depuis quelques semaines avec cerna et kouto qui sont déjà dans la guilde. Où en êtes-vous dans l'aventure ? : Aventure terminée, quelques quêtes secondaires complétées. Quels sont vos objectifs dans le jeu (PVP, farm, collection de PKM) ? : Surtout du PVP, et farm la perle rare Pourquoi devrions-nous vous choisir ? Toujours dispo pour aider ceux qui en ont besoin que ce soit pour trouver un pokémon en particulier ou autre. Pseudo discord : NRG7#0699

here are some calcs there may be flaws in the calcs and what i noted, so feel free to roast me if im wrong. im tired xd. without rocks + spikes: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 110-130 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 220-261 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 42-48 (13 - 14.8%) -- approx. possible 7HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 84-99 (26 - 30.6%) -- approx. 4HKO // you'd be out of your mind to leave your gren in vs a dnite anyways. 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 126-150 (48.2 - 57.4%) -- approx. 97.7% chance to 2HKO // breloom cannot reliably switch into ash gren and if hazards are up, it gets guaranteed 2hko. 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 120-142 (36.2 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 171-202 (60 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +1 252 Atk Gyarados-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 257-303 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO // gyarados, if it's already mega'd, can switch in on ash gren somewhat reliably if no hazards are on the field and have a chance to ohko ash gren but you wouldnt leave ash gren in unless you know it can ohko. 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 183-216 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 133-157 (38.8 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 54-65 (18.9 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 82-97 (28.7 - 34%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO // azu cannot come in reliably on ash gren and if hazards are up, it gets guaranteed 2hko by dark pulse.

Thank you for explaining this to them. I didn't think it was that hard to understand that not banning ash-gren hurts h.o. and balance players, aka the players who are complaining about others wanting it banned, more than it hurts stall players. Let's just ban t-wave clef instead, that's the real demon xd.

You call this trash meta healthy and balanced? Please tell me more. Stall and rain isnt healthy, specially not since those 2 teams are the meta for years now. Go and get a new excuse for banning this poke. In gen7, theres nothing but toxapex that checks it, nothing else, so I dont see your point. Tapus can check it too obviously, but we not gonna get them (atleast for now). And we have got every single other Ash-Greninja check in the game currently, so go ahead, get one more excuse for this one too.

You are saying 2 different things in 1 line. We are using Ge6 but with Gen7. Which means, Ash-Greninja shouldnt be allowed, since we are using mixed gen system. If we want to stick to gen6, lets put back everything as it should be. No poison heal defog gliscor, gale wings still gen6, shell bell allowed dwith recover moves, etc. Also, can you prove it would have been banned in Gen6? No, no, of course not, cause no one can.

Not Im the one who wants to ban it. Mix Greninja protein is very strong, while Ash-Greninja can(!) be strong, if its transforms. But before and after that its a glasscannon, it can be killed way more easily. Shaymin-Sky and Darkrai are Uber pokes, they should be banned, but Ash-Greninja shouldnt. We are using Gen7 system where it is OU.

If you guys don't want ban ok no problem, I hope we allow shaymin sky and darkrai

stall nobody wants to ban is not? mega aggron, mega steelix...

i dont think it should be banned just because of speed and sp atkt high... for the same reason chansey and skarmory are similar in defensive postition. if you want to ban grenija then maybe ban these 2 first

Should I really sum up this topic so far? Stallers cried beacuse they are so incompetent, they cant deal with Greninja. And Ash-Greninja is a stronger version of it. While their Chansey/Alomomola/Ferrothorn can easily deal with it.

I would say no...If you want to ban all the good pokes then whats the point of playing this game? Instead of making excuses jus think of a way to counter BB greninja..ther are lots of good pokes to counter it...!! Ban ban ban thats all that guys like u has to say...when u r scared of loosing in pvp...this is jus a game and if u want to play it ....play it fair...baning BB greninja is like using a cheat code to make the game easier...

I'm glad that your problems have been solved I'll now be closing the thread. Have a nice day.

While there are so many tank meta in the game, I think this type of pokemon should not be banned. I think it is a weakness to keep pokemons such as skarmory and chansey in your team and to constantly ask that such pokemon be banned. GL

Its already banned in Ladder Tournament. So part of staff is aware that it is overpowered in the current meta we have in PRO. Why isnt it banned on the game itself too then? This inconsistency is really questionable in my opinion and we had the same issue with Sheer Force Landorus some time ago.

>Conkeldurr used mach punch >opponents Ash-Greninja literally disintegrated Idk how much easier a poke can be to deal with, to compare him to the Tapu's is quite frankly laughable.

+1. We need toxapex, more megas, tapus and other stuff before adding ash-greninja to the game. Its too powerfull for the game now, its faster than basically every pokemon and the only meta pokemon that can take hits from It is a chansey. I think It is a Nice Idea to ban It for now, and unban It after the release of better pokemons. People can use stuff like azu calm h.a to counter It or a careful poliwrath but being forced to use an specific pokemon Just to deal with ash-greninja isnt healthy for the meta imo and makes the games less Fun.

Still hard to get battle bond in pvp bro u need kill 1 poke for that Abi work Without kill that Abi so bad

Hey, I have this problem with the battle interface. It's quite hard to explain but when I take damage it shows it on the opponent's health bar, when my pokemon faints it shows it as the opponents pokemon fainting, then when throwing out a new pokemon it sends it out where the opponents pokemon should be.

Hey, if you post it on the Megathread or on the #request-chat on PRO's official discord you should get help. https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/65778-restore-pokemon-megathread/

You cannot be serious, right? 1 line, okay, I couldnt answer more to that. But heres the question. You guys want to ban it, beacuse you cant deal with it? You should adopt to it than. Many "kind" people asked me on discord, why do I want to ban pokes like Chansey, Skarmory, Alomomola and so on. They asked, I cant deal with them, or what? I asked them the same question, and their only answer was "lol". Many players have atleast 1 or 2 counter in their team, and the so called "ladder players" are afraid of that mon. Thought they are there, beacuse they have many checks and answers and not beacuse they are afraid of a pokemon. Pokes like Goodra laughs at Ash-Greninja, while there were many calculations, how ridiculous is to stay in with Ash-Greninja against many poke. Dragonite, which is one, if not the most common dragon type in pvp, banded or dd set, easily deals with Ash-Greninja. So, heres the question. You cant adopt to meta? Or I should play rain or stall, and literally make people angry at pvp? Beacuse these 2 teams are the worst among all of them, I dont say they dont need skill, but I dont think using recovery/status moves with regenerator abilities, or putting up rain and use Kingdra or any other Swift Swim poke need so much thinking. Fun fact, when they will add tapus and magearna, we will have the same topic, beacuse they are broken. The million amount of set that they can have will change the whole meta, and we will say the same, they should be banned beacuse not everyone have checks for them.

-1 I want it to stay. Pokemon like Azumarill, Ferro and chansey are wide spread in PRO meta. They can easily wall Greninjas inferior non Ash-G form. Other than that Ash-G is not a very versatile mon and can be easily predicted. Good Day ^^

Broken link sadly

guys! no ban pls it get kill by mach punch i make epic