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An unhealthy Battle Bond: The Ash-Greninja case The other thread has quickly gone downhill and I am late to the party, so I decided to make a new thread instead, in hopes of getting more of you to notice this post and maybe read it. From what I have read, I can tell that some people are really underselling Ash-Greninja’s capabilities due to the presence of a few so-called counters and the fact that it does not activate Battle Bond without getting a kill. A Pokémon can still be ban-worthy even if it has checks and counters. Ash-Greninja was still extremely potent in SM/USUM OU. It was even ranked in S-tier for a while, until the final update before the end of USUM OU caused it to drop to A+. Keep in mind that this was in a metagame that was overprepared for it. A quick look at the SM OU Viability Ranking Thread, the USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread, and the most recent USUM OU Viability Rankings can show us the impact that Ash-Greninja has had on the metagame while simultaneously maintaining an A+ (or higher) ranking throughout Gen 7 OU. Some of the most viable Pokémon in SM/USUM OU are able to put in work against it. For example, Toxapex stops it and can at least put down Toxic Spikes to punish it for using Spikes. Magearna can check it and either retaliate with a powerful hit or gain momentum with Volt Switch, although it cannot endlessly switch into it due to the lack of reliable recovery. Ferrothorn can also check it relatively well and trade Spikes with it, but it does not have reliable recovery, either. Faster threats, like Tapu Koko, can force it out before it activates Battle Bond. There are other countermeasures, like Tapu Lele’s Psychic Surge, which summons Psychic Terrain and effectively suspends Ash-Greninja’s Water Shuriken. While this might seem minor at first glance, it can be game-changing, potentially preventing Ash-Greninja from using its powerful priority move against a naturally faster threat or Choice Scarf user. I am not going to go through the entire viability list because it pertains to Smogon; however, it is important to understand the level of centralization caused by Ash-Greninja in Gen 7 OU. If you check some of the analyses from that metagame, you will find that many Pokémon were specifically EV’d to take on Ash-Greninja. Ferrothorn ran a heavily specially defensive spread with 252 HP EVs and 232 Special Defense EVs to ensure not getting 3HKO’d by Choice Specs Greninja’s Dark Pulse at full HP. Amoonguss also ran specially defensive sets, carrying either Black Sludge or even Assault Vest, with sufficient HP and Special Defense to check Ash-Greninja. A Calm nature was used in conjunction with 248 HP EVs and 204 Special Defense EVs to avoid the 2HKO from Choice Specs Ash-Greninja’s Dark Pulse. The Assault Vest set was able to check Ash-Greninja better, but the loss of Spore is suboptimal. Mantine maintained an OU niche by being able to survive the 2HKO from Choice Specs Ash-Greninja’s Dark Pulse if Stealth Rock is on the field. Granted, it was a good check to other threats, such as Volcarona, but it would have even less of a niche/purpose in OU if it did not check Ash-Greninja. Mega Venusaur exclusively ran 68 Special Defense EVs to survive two Dark Pulses from Choice Specs Greninja after Stealth Rock and prevent it from activating Battle Bond. Ash-Greninja forced some Pokémon to run more specially defensive spreads to remain viable; it made a few others viable in OU because they could check it; it hurt the viability of many Pokémon that proved unable to adapt to its presence. This is not surprising, as this is what a top-tier threat does. It was manageable, but it was still one of the best Pokémon throughout all of Gen 7 OU and the level of centralization that it generated clearly shows. There were definitely some gatekeepers, like Magearna and Toxapex, that kept several top-tier threats in check. Without those Pokémon, who knows what USUM OU would look like today? Having said that, PRO is not Showdown. We do not have to ban something for the sole reason that it is/was banned on Pokémon Showdown. Conversely, we do not have to keep something just because it is/was not banned there. Hopefully, PRO can have its own PvP Council and Suspect Test Process at some point. You can read this article to learn more about the former and this one to see how Suspect Tests started. So, why should Ash-Greninja be banned in PRO? 1. We lack sufficient offensive counterplay to Ash-Greninja. Ash-Greninja sports an incredible 399 speed tier, which outpaces the entire (viable) metagame. Even pre-Battle Bond transformation, it is still really fast, boasting 377 speed. While it is slower than Weavile, pre-Battle Bond Greninja does not get Pursuit-trapped as easily as its Protean counterpart, thanks to maintaining its Dark typing, thus effectively removing one of the few ways of limiting it on an offensive level. Either way, you cannot just let Battle Bond Greninja get a kill to revenge kill it with Weavile, since Ash-Greninja outspeeds it. Even if we had everything that Gen 7 OU had, not many (viable) Pokémon would be naturally faster, but we would, at the very least, have more Megas: Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, Mega Alakazam, Mega Aerodactyl, etc. You can take a look at the USM OU Speed Tiers and the newer version of that list. Offensively speaking, we would also be able to take advantage of Terrain boosts (e.g., Psychic Terrain to block Water Shuriken, Grassy Terrain for passive recovery…) and Pokémon that benefit from Terrains in general (e.g., Unburden Hawlucha with Electric/Grassy/Psychic Seed). Even small things like Tapu Koko outspeeding Greninja before its Battle Bond transformation matter because they can add up. Moreover, we would have more options for Choice Scarf users, like Keldeo, Kartana, and whatnot, as well as more Pokémon with strong priority moves, such as Mega Pinsir. As of right now, many of the viable Choice Scarf users, most notably Landorus-T, get destroyed by a Choice Specs-boosted Water Shuriken. Ash-Greninja does resist common priority moves, too, namely Sucker Punch, Bullet Punch, and Aqua Jet. I would also like to add something about the Mach Punch myth, that is, the assumption that Ash-Greninja will merrily let itself die to Mach Punch. If the priority users that are able to KO it take some chip, they run the risk of dying to a Choice Specs-boosted Water Shuriken. If you happen to let Battle Bond Greninja get a kill, you are potentially looking at something as absurd as this in rain: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr in Rain: 354-423 (100.8 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO. That is a guaranteed OHKO on Conkeldurr with a neutral priority move. Finally, the Pokémon that would be able to offensively check Battle Bond Greninja by switching into it and threatening to KO it are always scarce, but this is further exacerbated in PRO, since there are still a few missing pieces (e.g., Magearna, Keldeo, Tapu Bulu, Primarina…). Running a specially defensive Breloom that can get obliterated on the switch by a rain-boosted, Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump is not acceptable. The same goes for Assault Vest Azumarill, Black Sludge Toxicroak, Roost Hydreigon, specially defensive Kommo-o, any bulky Mega Gyarados, etc. This hurts the offensive efficiency of these Pokémon and does not even help them against unusual coverage moves or Protean Greninja. Chansey offense is also not the answer, because offensive teams optimally need to keep up momentum and pressure. Overall, even in an ideal setup, we would need as many offensive countermeasures as possible. We simply do not have sufficient offensive counterplay to Ash-Greninja, that is, a satisfactory amount of naturally faster Pokémon, Choice Scarf users, Priority users, and offensive Pokémon able to switch into it at least once. 2. Ash-Greninja can easily take advantage of its defensive switch-ins or just wear them down over time. Some of Ash-Greninja’s defensive checks cannot survive if Dark Pulse flinches them once (e.g., Gastrodon, Mantine…), while those with no reliable recovery cannot outheal the damage (e.g., Leech Seed Protect Ferrothorn) or heal up forever (e.g., Synthesis Mega Venusaur). Prior to activating Battle Bond, Greninja sometimes only needs minimal chip or support (in the form of Stealth Rock and Spikes) to achieve 2HKOs on would-be defensive checks. In fact, Greninja can set up hazards on the defensive switch-ins that it forces, due to them being Spikes bait most of the time. Many of Ash-Greninja’s most reliable defensive checks are forced to recover whenever they switch into one of its attacks, to ensure that they can check it throughout the match, thus being forced into a passive loophole that can easily be taken advantage of. In the end, Ash-Greninja can still make progress against these defensive countermeasures, either by setting up Spikes and wearing down the opposition or by softening up said Pokémon and allowing one of its teammates to take advantage of them. We still lack some key defensive checks that are able to reset Ash-Greninja’s progress (e.g., Tapu Fini can semi-reliably switch into Ash-Greninja and use Defog to remove Spikes). Furthermore, running a passive Pokémon like Chansey on offensive builds – or builds that suffer from momentum loss – is something that Ash-Greninja and its teammates always appreciate and effectively capitalize on. Aside from its standard STAB moves, Ash-Greninja can run viable coverage options. For example, pre-Battle Bond Ice Beam has a chance to 2HKO Assault Vest Tangrowth. The same applies to Amoonguss unless it carries an Assault Vest. Hazards turn these rolls into guaranteed KOs. Overall, while we do have some defensive countermeasures to Ash-Greninja, they are not satisfactory enough, because they do not prevent it from making steady progress throughout the match. 3. As a result, Ash-Greninja can slowly but steadily make consistent progress throughout the match, either until it is able to activate Battle Bond and sweep on its own or until it has sufficiently softened up the opposing team for one of its teammates. It is also hard to undo Ash-Greninja’s progress in PRO due to the nature of the (limited) aforementioned offensive and defensive counterplay. The combination of Ash-Greninja’s speed, its access to Water Shuriken, and its sheer power makes it an extremely punishing Pokémon if it ever manages to activate Battle Bond. In fact, if Ash-Greninja gets ahead, it makes comebacks exceedingly difficult for many teams. It is both good at gaining an advantage and keeping it or furthering it, due to the nature of its toolkit and the progress-making advantages that naturally come with it. 4. Ash-Greninja promotes passive (counter)play. It is true that the best way to handle Ash-Greninja is preventing it from activating Battle Bond in the first place. However, this goes both ways, as it heavily pressures the opponent into never allowing it to get a kill. This effectively means that its checks – some of which lack reliable recovery – are under extreme pressure to stay alive. The opponent can also be forced to keep an otherwise useless Pokémon alive even if it is at low HP, just for the sake of preventing Ash-Greninja from activating its Battle Bond, thus allowing it to dent the whole team instead. Given the lack of offensive countermeasures in PRO, Ash-Greninja can effectively force passivity due to the constant threat of a Battle Bond transformation and that of a subsequent sweep. This shows both throughout a match and in the teambuilder, where its strain, in conjunction with the limited counterplay, can force you to run Chansey, Protect Ferrothorn, and even some otherwise unenviable – not necessarily unviable – Pokémon, such as Mantine, or some unviable Pokémon, like Poliwrath. In a way, the mere presence of Ash-Greninja dictates a specific risk/reward scenario that forces the opponent to think twice about making risky plays. As a result, Ash-Greninja becomes really good at forcing passive patterns that can be capitalized on or taken advantage of with low-risk double switches. For example, you can gauge your opponent’s reaction once or twice to accustom them to a specific behavior before unexpectedly breaking the pattern (e.g., using Dark Pulse on the Chansey switch-in, switching out, using Dark Pulse on another Chansey switch-in, switching out again, then switching to something that can beat Chansey or take advantage of it instead of using Dark Pulse a third time). This is, of course, not exclusive to Ash-Greninja; however, it is further enhanced by the favorable risk/reward situation that it creates, the limited counterplay currently available in PRO, the necessity to run more than 1 answer for it, and the fact that it requires little to no team support to break through its so-called checks. 5. After activating Battle Bond, Ash-Greninja gets access to one of the most powerful priority moves in the game in Water Shuriken. Being only resisted by 3 types in Water, Grass, and Dragon (which are all hit by Dark Pulse), Water Shuriken is a devastating priority move, further boosted by Ash-Greninja’s incredible 153 base Special Attack. It is even more powerful in rain (cf. the earlier calculation against Conkeldurr at full HP) but does not need it to deal an obscene amount of damage to neutral targets. No one wants to read a wall of calculations, so let me just put things into perspective to give you a good representation of how powerful Ash-Greninja’s Choice Specs-boosted Water Shuriken is. After Stealth Rock, Ash-Greninja has a chance to OHKO Bisharp (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 225-264 (83 - 97.4%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) and Gengar (252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 210-252 (80.1 - 96.1%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) with a neutral priority Water move outside of rain. Offensive teams are most pressured into making sure that they are always out of range of a Water Shuriken sweep, because they have the hardest time preventing Greninja from activating Battle Bond. Ash-Greninja can use its strong priority move to either revenge kill somewhat healthy Pokémon with relative ease or clean up late game, as if having 399 speed in conjunction with those offensive stats in PRO’s current meta was not already enough! 6. Ash-Greninja forms unhealthy cores with other Pokémon and enables them by softening up their common switch-ins. These include (but are not limited to) Pokémon that appreciate hazards (e.g., Aegislash), Pokémon that can deter their removal (e.g., Defiant users like Bisharp and Thundurus), Pokémon that can beat Ash-Greninja’s usual checks (e.g., Mega Gallade, Breloom…), Pokémon that share checks with it and can overwhelm them with its help (e.g., Heatran, Gengar, Tornadus-T…), and even Pokémon that can bait in Ash-Greninja’s checks and cripple them (e.g., Knock Off Thundurus, Solar Beam Heatran…). 7. Ash-Greninja has access to Spikes, a move with limited distribution, which can immensely help it (and its teammates) in achieving important KOs. Spikes also allow Ash-Greninja to capitalize on the many switches that it forces to punish passive plays. In general, setting up even 1 layer of Spikes can go a long way. 8. The presence of Ash-Greninja makes Protean Greninja even better. Protean Greninja is actually able to beat many of the Pokémon commonly run to check Ash-Greninja. For example, it can surprise Ferrothorn with HP Fire, Gastrodon with HP Grass or Grass Knot, Mega Venusaur and Amoonguss with Extrasensory, Assault Vest Azumarill and Assault Vest Tangrowth with Gunk Shot, etc. More concretely, if you are running something like specially defensive Ferrothorn to better your match-up against Ash-Greninja, you are suboptimally equipped to handle Low Kick Protean Greninja. If you overprepare for Ash-Greninja, you leave yourself more vulnerable to Protean Greninja. 9. Ash-Greninja does not have to exclusively run a single set to be as efficient as possible in PRO’s metagame. Even in Gen 7 OU, some people used Waterium Z as a one-time nuke to a would-be Ash-Greninja check like Magearna, while also retaining the ability to switch moves. The Choice Specs set is the best because Ash-Greninja does not really need anything other than 2 STAB moves, a priority move, and either Spikes or extra coverage (e.g., Ice Beam), depending on the rest of the team. No matter what, the Choice Specs set is always effective at what it does, but expecting the same moves every single time can occasionally be a costly mistake. However, in PRO, we do not have the luxury to scout for uncommon or unusual options anyway. 10. Unlike what many people claim, Greninja is not extremely weak before activating Battle Bond. With Stealth Rock and just 1 layer on Spikes, it has a chance to 2HKO Blissey in rain: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Rain: 264-312 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery. Granted, Blissey will almost always be inferior to Chansey, at least until Heavy-Duty Boots become a thing (if they ever do). To put things into perspective, pre-Battle Bond Greninja has 103 base Special Attack and Kingdra has 95 base Special Attack. Both Pokémon typically run Choice Specs. 11. While Ash-Greninja is, by no means, a bulky Pokémon, we cannot pretend that it is frail to the point of dying to any attack in existence. Most of the time, you will need to attack it twice to kill it. It can survive +2 Sucker Punch from Adamant Life Orb Bisharp (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 218-257 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Extreme Speed from Choice Band Dragonite (252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 203-239 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), +6 Aqua Jet from Belly Drum Azumarill (+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 219-258 (76.8 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), U-turn from Choice Scarf Landorus-T (252 Atk Landorus-Therian U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 228-270 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), Hydro Pump from Choice Specs Kingdra in the rain (252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja in Rain: 237-279 (83.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), and the list goes on. 12. Ash-Greninja is overcentralizing to an unhealthy extent. It forces you to run a very limited pool of Pokémon that are able to check it. This point will prove truer if Ash-Greninja ends up not being banned, thus inevitably causing an unhealthy amount of overcentralization around Pokémon that it does not even necessarily lose to (cf. points 1 and 2). 13. The existence of Ash-Greninja hurts the viability of multiple playstyles. This is another point that would prove truer in the long term. Ash-Greninja, similarly to Protean Greninja, dismantles offensive builds. Over time, the metagame was able to (healthily or unhealthily) adapt to the latter; however, it is currently unable to deal with the former. Ash-Greninja is weak to fewer priority moves than Protean Greninja, since its typing always remains the same. Unlike its Protean counterpart, Ash-Greninja has 399 speed, which allows it to outpace Weavile. Moreover, as a Dark type, it is less prone to Pursuit trap. Unlike Protean Greninja, Ash-Greninja can make good use of Water Shuriken to circumvent some of its would-be revenge killers with minimal chip. It also forces offensive teams to modify their builds accordingly. For example, after a Dragon Dance, Dragonite can only outspeed Ash-Greninja with a Jolly nature while being unable to OHKO it with +1 Extreme Speed with an Adamant nature. A Jolly nature effectively entails a noticeable drop in power, which offensive teams require a lot. While Ash-Greninja can fit on balanced and bulky offensive builds, those still have a hard time dealing with it in general due to its ability to wear down or muscle through standard defensive backbones, while not caring about their offensive cores as much. Stall is able to handle most Ash-Greninja sets by somewhat reliably preventing it from activating Battle Bond thanks to being able to afford the momentum drain that comes from running Pokémon like Chansey and Alomomola, although it must be said that Ash-Greninja can still find a way to put down Spikes and make progress against those kinds of teams. Due to the overwhelming arguments against it, Ash-Greninja should be banned from PvP. This one is not even a close call. In my opinion, Battle Bond Greninja should be banned until we have almost everything else from Gen 7 OU. I truly believe that the sole addition of Toxapex would not be enough to make it less problematic, as this would result in heavy overcentralization. Being forced to pick one or two Pokémon from a very limited pool of options is unhealthy. We need as much offensive and defensive counterplay to Ash-Greninja as possible.

PRO BetterHunt BetterHunt is a utility app which reads the game data from your screen using a technique called OCR (Optical Character Recognition), and provides you with a list of all encounters and more options to visualize the data in a better way. This project is heavily inspired from the PRO BetterFarm, which did the same purpose, but its no longer active/maintained, so we decided to take on a remake. Along with the encounter stats, we're providing a little more features which we plan on extending in future. Features Better UI, dark mode, easy to use. No setup required. Overlay, which is always-on-top and allows you to easily check out stats in real-time. Save/Load sessions anytime. Export sessions as CSV (can be opened in MS Excel and other programs) and JSON Set your Target Pokemon, and get stats. Shortcuts for easier accessibility. Built-in Discord Rich Presence! Show off your session data on Discord. Important Note This is NOT a bot, this DOES NOT hunt Pokemon for you. All it does is captures your screen and read data to identify Spawns. How to use Using PRO BetterHunt is simple. Download BetterHunt, extract, and run! Then just login into the game, and click on "Start" button in the app, or simply Ctrl+W, or on menu bar BetterHunt -> Start. If everything works right, you would see "In Game: Yes" on the bottom text (status bar). All encounters are recorded on the list maintained on right part of the UI. You can save (Ctrl+S or Ctrl+Shift+S) the session (encounter data basically) as PBFX (custom export format), a format used to save/load encounter data, or sessions. And can also load the session by clicking "Open" or on menu-bar, BetterHunt -> "Open", or simply Ctrl+O. This format is encrypted to prevent editing of the data. You can also export it as CSV (Ctrl+C) or JSON (Ctrl+J), just click on "Export" below the encounters list. You can even enable the Overlay, on the menu-bar, BetterHunt -> "Overlay: Off" and a small sized box will appear on bottom right of your screen. This provides summary of the encounters such as total, current and last encounter, with number of encounters and percentage out of total. Discord Rich Presence To enable Discord Rich Presence (RPC, or RP), on menu-bar, click on Utility -> "RPC: On" and "RPC: Off" for turning it off. If this is not displayed on your Discord status, check in Settings -> Game Activity tab of Discord, and make sure you have selected BetterHunt there. This only works with Desktop version of Discord. Shortcuts Ctrl+O - Load Session file (.PBFX) Ctrl+S - Save current session file or save the session in new file Ctrl+Shift+S - Force save session in a new file and load it instead Ctrl+W - Start/Stop the detection of Game/Encounters. Resets the session time too. Ctrl+L - Toggle Overlay Ctrl+T - Edit Target Pokemon Download Windows - PRO BetterHunt v1-0-1.7z Due to the size of app, which is bit large due to the complete Tesseract OCR and Pokemon sprites being there, it is packed in .7z file, way smaller, which can be extracted using 7-Zip. Previews Issues We cannot assure you that there are no bugs. No one is perfect. If found an issue/bug/unexpected behavior in app, let us know in comments! Troubleshooting If this doesn't work for you, try changing GUI Scale in PROClient's settings, most preferably to default, as the images that are detected were taken on Default GUI scale and may cause it to not detect the Game/Encounters. If still no luck, post below in comments with some details! Please try using "1280x600" resolution if it doesn't work. Todo/Ideas Add Pokedex and other utility Ability to see spawns of a Pokemon / Map Data server to organize data from all users for better accuracy and statistics Developers DjDeveloper#7777 Scara#0888 [Discord RPC Module] This app is made with Python using Tesseract OCR Engine and PyQt5 for GUI

With all the megas coming it becomes even harder to play PvP with the pokes u actually like and not the ones with highest stats... the list of pokes to use to win gets even smaller with every mega so please once again i want to request an additional ranked pVP queue with all OU pokes and above banned pls new pvpers will not get scared away by all the legendaries and staller teams and more ppl wil start PvPing wow everything will be amazing without chansey so pls

Why would you not abuse a pokemon that, in our current meta, needs to be banned?

Bold + Italics sentences are my responses.

This is the end of a huge experience of pro life, I give my account over skilled, slot13 and born2bealive to commotion1, my dear friend. Pura Vida

Players from GOLD are welcome to bid but they have to transfer and pick up the Pokemon themselves. S.o: 5m Min bid: 200 k insta: 10 m Duration: 48 hours after first bid Pokedollars Coin Capsules: 400k Reroll Tickets: 700k Nature Reroll Tickets: 350k

Auction rules Auction will last 48 hours after first bid Minimum bid is 100k The pokemon is being sold from Gold Buyers from Silver have to transfer to Gold No Insta price Accepted payments Pokedollar Coin Capsule = 400k Reroll Ticket = 700k Contact Ingame: Norex / Norex2 Discord: Norex #7322 Start offer = 2m

Pokemon auctioned: Gible Starting price/point: 1m Minimum raise: 150k Ending point: ends 15.10.2020 22:05 Insta Price: 5m Available payments: Pokedollars CC= 400k If i need to i will Transfer the gible to silver server. Offers on this Post, ingame at kochamcie112 (DM) I hope i made all right.. if somthing is wrong please tell me.. have fun and good luck everyone

Hello trainers, im auctioning some pvp pokes goodluck^^ Payment options: Pokedollars, cc [400k], Reroll [700k] [Weavile] Start: 800k Min raise: 100k Duration: 24hours after start [Manectric] Start: 900k Min raise: 100k Duration: 24hours after starting offer [Serperior] Start: 1m Min raise: 100k Duration: 2 days after start

Sad to see u quit, hope u come back one day best French hunter!

+1 The math like he posted before is a very good argument. And like some1 else pointed out its kind of xD that the only legend with the option of ideal hp are staffs or the very very rares ones that us normal pleb got. Either push forwards idea like this or with other applications or ban those "staff mons" from pvp :). The argument that this would make it to "OP", well if so then why are staff allowed to use perfect iv and chosen hp and the rest of us have a beter chance playing lottery? Isnt that the true OP, xD. I dont do not want to point fingers but for example smooge got a staff generated lando with stronk iv and hp ice. I dont mind the ivs as much but i can bet alot of my none existing bank account (im broke send help!) that very few if not only he have a hp ice lando, esp with good iv. That literally means if he so choose to run that set his lando got a gigantic advantage over every other lando in existence, in both mirror matchup and matchup against stuffs like garchomp/gliscor etc. And lando is a very popular mon (with good reasons ofc). Boasting a top 25 usage every season so far and a 60%ish winrate. How come some people (and again dont plame the player, blame the game/system) get to use these stuffs while others have to play with 0.000001 chance of just getting the correct hp with passable evs? The argument that it break the economy or to op for pro or what not, well that just scale with the counter argument that the privilege few gets special advantage in pvp. So the stronger you think its bad for pro, the biger is the gap btw plebs and higher society (i have a flair for drama, but man how often do you get to say "higher society". Now im not saying this posts idea or i have the correct solution, but something in this direction is worth discussing, or at very least about the usage of these staff mons, while normal poke i dont mind, having generated legens with chosen hp is imo "op". While the rest of us are playing lottery with the previous mentioned 0.000019805 chance of getting fitting hp ( i just copied that guys number:credit/blame goes to him)

Epic post...loved it...

The one who said battle bond needs to be bann. What a dude..

Ign- Kai2156 Discord- Myth3940

i wanted to suggest exactly the same thing...amazing suggestion...the only problem is the lack of people

I start

I want charizard 100 k for charizard

+1.131415

Me and my friend who is called "Aggs" on gold server are premier shiny collectors that came out from under our rocks in vermillion pc to say ban greninja because we have spent 1321312323 trying to find shiny greninja and only got brain damage. Therefore this is absolutely broken and where do i go to apply for ascenscion guild?? also trade evo golem if any of u got time.

Someone clearly doesn't understand the point of the post. Ash Greninja has high stats with no drawback (rip Archeops) and has a Priority move that is strong enough to 2(?)OHKO its counters. Furthermore, Charizard X, Mega Mawile, Mega Lopunny aNd eVeRy tApU are not even close to being as broken as Ash Greninja is. Ash Greninja needs ONE kill to suddenly boast a whopping 399 speed stat which outspeeds the 'entire (viable) metagame" (Yes I read Joro's post, unlike you) and 405 Special attack (and 350 attack for those memers :3) Charizard X requires a Dragon Dance boost which is effectively a turn of not doing anything (which is easy to outplay, let's be honest, it is already seen with Dragonite). Mega Mawile requires Swords dance and is slow, even with Sucker Punch, it is not STAB and is not extremely reliable (Low PP, Requires Opponent to use an attack). Mega Lopunny lacks a slot to put in a much needed priority move, easily loses to rocky helmet and residual chip damage while being walled because of it's mediocre attack stat (FOR A MEGA POKEMON WHOSE MAIN JOB IS TO HIT HARD). Tapus are Legendaries and are not even as Meta-Defining as Ash Greninja, by that logic we should ban all legendaries because you don't know how to pvp. https://pokemonrevolution.net/forum/topic/158532-ban-aegislash-from-pvp/?tab=comments#comment-878146 In case you are not going to find the thread yourself, thread was not made by the smartest of people but this is a pro ban for Aegislash thread. Toxapex has alot of thing that kills it, same as any other wall (Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, Chansey, Clefable) You probably don't know about type effectiveness so I linked the Smogon pages for you. https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/types/poison/ https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/types/water/ Smogon pages of what Toxapex are weak against. https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/toxapex/ To read up more on Toxapex It is just any other wall (maybe a little more annoying to deal with) If it bothers you so much that you have to complain about H.O and Stall on a Ash Greninja ban thread when it has nothing to do with the thread itself then don't bother coming here and slurring your sub 100 rating nonsense.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery i don't see where it comes in on ash gren and "laughs at it". maybe you're more familiar with the sub 200 rating range, where people don't switch out but a good player will never leave a pokemon as influential as ash gren in on something that could ohko it with priority. 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Conkeldurr in Rain: 354-423 (100.8 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock do you know what op means? this is the exact definition of a pokemon that is overpowered and needs to be banned, although, temporarily in my opinion until gen 7 comes out. as a side note: there is no such thing as "not that op". either it's op or it's not.

Train him and evolve him :3 Also, don't use "godly" term for a 06hp one, it's fake advertisement. If that's protean greninja, i start

Calm H.A. Azu has been used in PRO as an excellent counter to Serp thou, so its uses are not that exclusive. Anw, it remains true that Ash Gren is super hard to check atm. People here and there have been saying "Oh, just mach punch/vacuum wave it", but Ash Gren is a late game cleaner and will seal the game once your Conk/Luca got the slightest of chipped damage to be 1hko-ed by Water Shuriken, so it's kinda funny for to see the Mach Punch argument. Extreme Speed, esp. from a Banded Poke, is a legitimate check thou. So, it's a shame, but +1 to a temp ban to Ash-Gren until more of its checks are released. Kudos to the game makers for releasing this awesome mon thou, just not quite at the right time.

I'm interested to know which of Jorogumos points made you come to this conclusion. My bet is none of them, cause I doubt you've even read it at all. Do feel free to take the wheel and explain how the players of the archetype that is damaged the least are the ones promoting this the most, though. I'm very interested in the line of thought, but I haven't been able to figure out where it originated. From where I stand, the fact that HO relies on momentum colliding with the fact that Ash-Gren exudes a ridiculous amount of it is a little odd, to put it mildly. I don't know how you play the game, but I'll go out on a limb and say stall players are less likely to have to sacrifice a Pokémon to Ash-Gren than any other playstyle.

I wont bring up the same arguments again, as many people already made very good posts already. I just want to say that the fact people bought/hunted one should never be an argument for not banning it. The decision has to be independent of facts like that. People should look at the topic more open-minded, ignoring the fact they used money/time to get a BB Greninja.

I honestly can't wait for people to not know how terrains work when they come out lol. It's gonna be fun watching people spam prio in psychic terrain or try to spore a mon in electric terrain and wonder why it's not working .

-1 Useless discussion.... Just Mach punch it smh

Hello, Like told Hawluchaa, the official winner is Norex for 800K. Trade is done and auction is end. Thanks all for your participation. Have a nice day, Glaciate