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Unban Greninja Here:- (Removed Petition as it was overruled) I Request an All Player accessible Voting for Final Ban/Unban Decision of Protean Greninja. Greninja has been a part of ranked pvp for almost 2 year iirc. It was never consider broken! Why now? Mega Metagross was kept unbanned for few reasons stated on discord! Let's compare Geninja with those reasons. Keep in mind that I love Mega Metagross and these is just to compare, not prove anything against mega Metagross. 1) It has yet to show signs of breaking metagame - I got no reason to believe that greninja is harmful for metagame, that thing is been around for 2 years! If it was harmful, shouldn't the metagame be dead by now 2) It has fair checks and counters- Lmao for real, you are going to unban Mega Metagross for that reason and not greninja. I do realize that greninja can be played smartly with protean, but that thing is fragile asf! It gets 2hko from moves it resist ( especilly since it requires - def/ sp.def nature because of mix run) It has to be run with life orb usally which just adds up to its fragility. 3) It has 4 moveslot syndrome- Its getting real at these point. You really believe that metagross has these syndrome and not GRENINJA. Players who fear it is because it can run mix or at its best hp fire. Surf, Ice beam, hp Fire, Spikes, low kick, gunk shot, u turn, extrasensory,hp grass... WOW no 4 move syndrome at all. To add up , they said it could run 7-8 moves that it would like to run ( metagross) but is limited to 4, WHAT ABOUT NINJA THAN??? you think it can cover entire meta in its 4 moves? 4) It doesn't yet restrict teambuilding to an unhealthy extent- I dont even know what he wanna prove with these point. Lets move onn 5) It can be dealt with all major playstyles- whats the current meta, chansey? ferrothrom?? clefable??? Playstyle- Rain? Trickroom?? Balanced Teams??? Greninja can handle all of them alone? with 4 moves?? OK I think if all these reasons can cause mega metagross to unban, than greninja deserves an unban aswell. Please sign the Petiton if you feel Greninja was banned unfairly, Thank you.

No offense , but this is very wrong. If you switch in a "check" on greninja and you get spiked on instead , you got outraded that turn, that turn is a tremendous loss for you. Not to mention the fact that greninja beats all the common defoggers in the meta: rotom wash (with hp grass) - tornadus - landorus - zapdos - skarmory- latis , you name it... And trying to predict greninja when greninja is trying to spike is like playing with fire . Since one layer of spikes is more than enough, staying on a greninja trying to spike again is a bad idea most of the time. I wonder how many times i built a team , and i was like "huh , this loses to greninja if it's carrying these 2 specific moves" and what do you know? 2 games later i face a greninja with that exact same moveset and the team goes to the trashbin. Greninja with the right moveset can topple teams over , you never know what moves it's running , wether its physical or special oriented , wether its banded , scarfed , sashed , expert belted... And it virtually has no switch ins until you can figure out what set it's running. While this is true , most pokemons that suffer from 4mss have one thing in common , if they are against a counter and do not carry the right move , they are completely useless. But in the case of greninja , that 4mss is an advantage . Not knowing what moves greninja is running from its billion possible and viable moves , leaves you only with the option to try and scout. And if you scout its moveset wrong , best case you get spiked on a couple times , worst case you lose a mon or two just to try and figure out what set this demon is running. Believe it or not , greninja is a "support" pokemon . Its job is not to sweep or 1v6 the enemy team , its job is to break through it with continious chip and hazards ( spikes and the rare toxic spikes) and soften them up for its teamates . So the stronger the metagame becomes , the better greninja itself becomes . Yes greninja does not win games on its own obviously against a well rounded team, but its role as an early game powerhouse is to soften up the enemy pokes so it's partners can wreak havoc late game , and no one does this job better than it. Big -1.

-1 All arguments in favor of Greninja ban have been discussed in the pvp council. You can find more examples and arguments in smogon articles. If you can’t understand why a Pokemon like Greninja should be banned for an healthy metagame sorry to say that, but you may lack sufficient knowledge to properly play Pokemon in a « competitive way ». This decision has nothing to do with « it has been there for 2 years », « people love greninja », « we spent lot of money on it » or even « I’ve been farming greninja for hours ». What comes from reading your complaints is that you don’t understand how a ban is decided. So instead of using fallacious arguments (like alomomola and chansey should be banned since they are unbreakable) try to understand what is an healthy metagame.

When you want to unban Greninja, you have to bring valid arguments. Especially when its already banned and you want to unban it. So, how do you do that? I can help you to tell you how to not do it. Are they compareable? If so, why? Maybe your statement is right, who knows?! I dont, because you just write it down without explanation. This is NOT an argument. Which? You may be right, you may not be right. Who knows when you keep your knowledge as a secret? Show us. As you probably already know some arguments about the 4 move syndrom, how can you abuse that when you see a Greninja in the opposing team? Because for Metagross it doesnt seem to be so hard *I heard* Nice to know. Why tho? Its again the "handle" question. Just explain how to deal with Greninja. How do you deal with it in a proper way. How does that prove anything? When I show you a screenshot where I kill a Mega Rayquaza with Ice Beam its also not op? When I say "why?" or so, it does not mean I disagree with you neccessarily, but if you have a point, you should argue in a right way. You can do 1: Cry and write random stuff or 2: Give arguments that staff has no other choice to unban it and has to apologize. Dont get me wrong, there are also ppl who wanted Gren to be banned and didint bring the top explanation. But the current status is that Gren is banned, and we (Gren ban likers) dont have to bring the arguments atm. You have to

It’s true that greninja has been a part in the ranked pvp for almost 2 years but back in that time we still don’t have any pvp council yet. The council was created to discuss about any pvp topics because the staff might be not knowledgeable enough or need some pvpers’s opinion to discuss about pvp things and I believed the thread about greninja and aegislash were brought up to discuss since the council was created but they did not get banned for some reasons even if the council members agreed to ban it for long long time. Why they unbanned metagross ? Some people in council agree to ban it and some people did not therefore the council do their job to survey top 25 pvpers’s opinion in both server [in that time] last season which is in April, 2021. I guess, the conclusion of the survey [ both of council members and Top#25 on both servers] is unbanned the metagrossite. below is my opinion about metagross. We are going to talk about “How greninja broke healthy metagame” In my viewpoint. There are lots of thing that can check greninja such as chansey, ferrothorn, rotom etc. but none of them can counter it. Chansey : low kick is not even 2 hits k.o. but there is the chance to do that with stealth rock up and high roll [in case of full hp] and free to set up spike predicted chansey is to switch in as a checker then greninja can safely switch out. [stay in and get toxic, paralyzed never be a play to be honest]. Spike is the best support move for greninja to help any sweepers do their job easier. You know the move Defog and it’s exist in PRO ? Almost of the defoggers in PRO meta are weakness to greninja : [1] Rotom-wash : Hp. Grass, spike [predicted the volt switch] [2] Ice weakness defoggers : Zapdos, Tornadus, Skamory and gliscor etc… [ hydro or surf] They are all slower and weak to icebeam, surf therefore they can’t defog in front of greninja. Ferrothron : absolutely fine to check greninja with out hp.fire and low kick but as I said above free spike on predicted switch and don’t switch out and take leech or some damage are not the play. Clefable : Gunk shot doesn’t 1 hit k.o but it doesn’t good enough to check, tbh Conkeldurr : sneak with protean or risk to get k.o. with match punch when staying in water-dark type is not a good play. Greninja is fragile as you said but if you can use it properly you won’t let it take any damage, of course it’s fragile compared to metagross but there’re things can check and counter matagross imo. it’s not that hard to deal with [ sucker punch, scarfted magnezone forced to take damage from volt switch, some safe checks. Etc.] Grenninja’s movepool : of course every pokemon has 4 slot of moves but with its ability, I would say it’s too op because it’s stab every move and before you figure it out what set it is, your team might get ruined, of course we can check the move by double switching to check but if the hazards are up, I’m not preferred to take additional damage for free and it can learn u-turn, get a free momentum yeah ….. boom! It can be dealt with all major playstyles with only 4 moves : due to the flexible playstyle and movepool I think it is because as I said we can’t figure out what set it it. All I said above about the greninja, I’d said it causes the unhealthy meta. I considered those circumstances above as 6vs6 not 1vs1 because when you pvp, you have 6 pokemons as your opinion as well and to clarify this only my viewpoint why greninja should be ban. All of discussion banning pokemon I think the council made their decision with their respectable knowledge, some surveys with pvpers and they carefully consider about it, I believed. I understand you point, all of PRO players are not pvpers how pvpers can be representatives of all the people in PRO community. You might feel like your voice doesn’t be heard but It doesn’t mean they did not care about your voice. Some duty might need specific skills or people who are knowledgeable knowing pokemon in competitive way enough to get the best result of any discussion. They just “Put the right man in to the right job”. Additional : https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue44/ou-to-ubers That’s why I “-1” this thread. Respectfully,

Besides the change.org link, this is the first sentence of the post. An inaccurate statement. Way to go my guy. It was considered broken from the very beginning but was not banned because Eaty had just coded the ability to work, so it was a no-go on banning it. It was at the time he just became Dev and could do actual work on the game. It would have been a huge waste of time for him to code something and instantly ban it (a highly requested ability at the time and considered impossible to code by previous Devs). So no, it always has been considered broken. It was just a matter of time till the plug was pulled.

Then make a proper post. I only see "OMG", "read" etc. I can just repeat myself, you write down stuff without any explanation. It just makes no sense. You posted a rolls now, nice. I asked for some, it still doesnt convince me at all since I will just switch out on those. You didnt get my point of the post. I didnt post it to give counterarguments, you just simply write stuff which are no arguments, Why should that convince anyone? This post is just a random flame for the ban, when I would read that as staff Id laugh at it and close it. If you want a proper discussion, go and actually try to convince ppl with arguments.

Sorry I am not as fancy at quoting and editing as you are, but when I created these post I thought that experienced players will well know the facts that I am providing like it getting 2hkoed and stuff even if they want it banned, soo i didnt show calculations but than you show up, First and formost you completly missed the part where I mentioned that metagross isnt being suspected upon here, I am just tryin to prove a point with it. I love metagross, seems like you too do. One word READ! I clearly said its been around for two years and pvp is still alive, than how is it harmful for meta now Whats it that counters tyranitar, infernape and their likes, hell even a blaze blaziken, they are unpredictable, they dont have counters OMG!!! Show us. 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja: 125-148 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO 252+ Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 192-227 (67.3 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Lol cant even tank 2 bb from skarmory:- 0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 148-175 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO I know it isnt weak to flying, but i find it funny, I can show many more I would throw my chansey against the ninja and let it die a painful death from his own lie orb recoil when I am just softboilong. Just kidding, Again I can list other mons that can be unpredicatble, that doesnt mean banning them, if you cant handle pvp heat! why play it lmao Nice to know. Why tho? I thought you knew English, I said I didn't realize what they meant from that point soo I clearly left it untouched without any comment regarding it. Its again the "handle" question. Just explain how to deal with Greninja. How do you deal with it in a proper way. Alright, you are trying to act smart at these point. I clearly mean that when you have a ninja thats either mix, physical or special, it alone cant handle the enitre metagame. There will always be something that ninja cant kill. You tell me a perfect ninja moveset and I will delete these thread right away. I dont want to be toxic, I never like to be, I just wanted a discussion or a voting for Ninja ban, I dont know why some people are being rude. I hope you undertsand that our personal values should always be higher than the game. Have a good day.

Yeah, when you use Greninja like in your posts, no wonder you dont find it op.

I can't take your post seriously by saying "he is not experienced" in pvp, considering you never finished top at the end of the season, while he did. Gren ban has been discussed for years, that's true. However, as I said in another post, I never found it hard to counter. People need to understand that this is not gen 6. It's gen 6 pokémon working with gen 7 mechanics, which makes the game different. Resuming: +1

-1.Greninja as an individual mon isn't that problematic, but the offensive pressure it applies with spikes and it is just too good when paired with wave 3 mega like metagross/alakazam(to name a few)also being able to defeat defogger like rotom with hp grass is something that requires people to build teams to specifically counter things like this which I think is unhealthy for meta.Also,its unpredictability is a major issue. It's gonna get unbanned in future with release of tapus I suppose,but unbanning it now will not be a good decision.

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UNROLL THE TADPOLE UNCLOG THE FROG UNLOAD THE TOAD UNINHIBIT THE RIBBIT UNSTICK THE LICK UNIMPRISON THE AMPHIBIAN UNMUTE THE NEWT UNBENCH THE KENCH PERMIT THE KERMIT DEFOG THE POLLIWOG "-1 tho"

+1

Why other pokemon with multiple very different sets (evs, moves, item) won't be banned. -Tyranitar - 4x weak to Fighting, Mach Punch (Priority) Vacuum Wave (Priority) -Garchomp - 4x weak to Ice, Ice Shard (Priority) -Pelipper - 4x weak to Electric -Heatran - 4x weak to ground -Landorus - Same as Garchomp -Goodra - Slow -Mew - No one really uses this tbh I'm sorry, I'm lazy. "But walls beat Greninja" -Greninja can just U-turn / switch out to wall breakers lmao. "Mega pokemon beat Greninja" (Ghabra's point) Strong pokemon also synergize with Greninja, with Greninja helping them to wear down opposing pokemon in order to open up a sweep. This make Greninja even scarier as it has stronger teammates to work with. "We might as well ban walls" -Walls are a part of a game, slow, switch-in-able. They are also part of what makes Pokemon strategic. "No one cares about spikes" -Setup is annoying ngl, and defog is a waste of a turn if you are just removing one spike. "Greninja can't ohko" -Like they said, Greninja is a chipper / support, not a sweeper. "4 Move Syndrome" -Oh look, its a Greninja, I wonder which of its 14 possible moves it has and which of its 6 possible Items its using. Can't wait to sacrifice some pokemon to find out! "Priority Moves" -Just switch out ya know? "Frail" -I said just switch out, you have 5 other party members to use. Please, just let the game add more faries (Tapus) and walls (Toxapex) before we unban Greninja. Sure, my points are bad but im tired, lazy, and I don't feel like debating so eh.

How can you act funny when u clearly said something, I prove it otherwise and than u say I cant understand rhetoric. Also the only reason I brought along Petiton was to prove a fact with numbers since they didn't held a voting. Anyway, was good to have you here, thanks for your opinions. Have a good day.

The fact that you are using a petition to bring back Greninja is clearly because you ask for people to agree on non solid arguments (already mentioned by more experienced players than you) that’s why I mentioned the other arguments I read many times before. You ask me to read all the topics but dude you should first since you can’t even remember that you mentioned that chansey alomomola should be banned. By the way, I don’t need a player like you to valid or invalid one of my comment

If you re not going to answer using any valid arguments or anything constructive ,and try to make fun of actual people having an actual discussion here, do not quote me please. Thank you

+1, I want Greninja to be Unbanned, however unbanning it doesn't mean it's not dangerous, but it really is. Here are my opinions for Greninja: PROS: - Can dodge/resist super effective/dangerous moves with Protean - Hits hard with the help of stab moves - Fast and a very good suicide lead - Very wide movepool - Most of the time Unpredictable CONS: - Very fragile with -def or -spdef nature since mostly everyone uses mixed Greninja - Also I think life orb is the most popular item with it and reduces 10% hp each time it attacks and thus making it more fragile. - There are way more faster Pokemon than it, and can kill it due to its low bulk - Using a choice item? No problem, if youre a good player you can easily scout it and most of these sets are confident in front of faster pokemon than Greninja and obviously, its scarfed. If not then it maybe has a strategy to do. Also being choice locked is actually bad when youre in front of Balanced Teams or Stall Teams. And if youre having a hard time with a choice locked Greninja, you can remove that Choice Item with Knock Off and other moves that removes items. - Being an Unpredictable Pokemon can be countered when you scout moves, by switching or using protect. However, sometimes it can be useless as 4 moves can destroy an entire team. As I said these are just my opinions.

You know you missed the whole point when you did not mention the word "spikes" a single time.

justice for frog

Ok, let say that the problem is mega lopunny, so what vs ferro? Lets see what happened... First turn 2nd turn 3th turn 4th turn

You can't avoid e-speed with shadow sneak in the same turn, since it's +2 priority. If you are going against the ban, at least show knowledge about the meta and about how the moves work.

+1 Greninja is has low def, spdef and hp stat. Which makes greninja fragile to so many moves. I saw people giving some undesirable reasons like people can't predict(This some trash reason). PvP is all about predicting the moves. Banning pokemons just spoil the fun.

Let me show you a fun story Turn 1 turn 2 turn 3 turn 4 WOW what a monster

Unban greninja, dont be waller. There is a lot of pro pvp yt videos where u can se how fragile greninja is

Yes Greninja should be unbanned its the only pokemon which does match changing perfomance while its so frigil and have many counters its a great pokemon used in ranked pvp and I'm 100% sure pvp is dead without Greninja

-1

How old are you and where are you from? I’m around 30 and I come from France. Why would you like to join Trinity? I want to be part of a strong guild. I joined my current guild out of loyalty to one of its officers who has since stopped playing. I now want to join a more active and ambitious community. Were you part of another guild in the past and if so which one? I was in Apocalypse for around a year, in Predators for around a year, and in Evolution for the past few months. I also play on gold in Renaissance and in RoyalRaiders. What is the highest rating you've ever got? It was slightly above 200. What do you enjoy most doing in PRO? I like collecting epic Pokémon, and using them in battle. I also enjoy getting a clearer understanding of why some things work and others don’t in PvP. What else other than rating can you contribute to Trinity? As most older accounts, I have accrued Pokémon that I could lend. I actively follow discord, and enjoy helping out insofar as I can. I have a good handle on getting along, and that has allowed me to mediate and help resolve conflicts in the past, should they arise. What is your Discord ID? jack3957261#2167

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i actually do want them, which means your statement is false, tapu koko would be very nice for me, i dont want to debate when you seem this upset, anger clouds judgement, stall hate = anger, so i'll just leave it and its been said that eventually all legendaries will want to be added, so it's just a matter of time. just because you don't want to have to adapt to a new metagame that involves tapus and toxapex, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either.

Shoot ur offers/prices/trades for this babys Golden server Any trade to silver ill be counting on buyer price. Unless buy 2-3 counts on me. Accepting ccs items etc

Kecleon, Froakie and Frogadier with Protean are unbanned in OU Ranked PvP now. It's going to be Kecleon's meta now.

Sure +1 from me. not gonna talk my reason why because this also suddenly ban without any reason afer years used. I also need the thread why ninja, m.sable. and m.mawile banned and broken mega metagros allowed. also all the opinion why ban and unban. Atleast i want to give my argue that maybe so much different with them. Iam ready 1v47 but dont too english, sure i cant understand what you trying to talk

Well for me. Greninja is so fragile. Some of pvp players dosnt know how to handle greninja. Even greninja cant kill chansey with 2 low kicks.

+1 Greninja should be unbanned its best pokes to kill stalls due to versatile moveset and people giving reason that gren can kill defoger like with hp gras thats [heck]. These days we can predict its hp grass or anything and its not even available to all u gotta hunt it hell and u should get advantage of ur effort and u can counter gren easily u just need good team buildup unless u battle with random teams .with gren ban most of the current mega got not checks and easily sweeps with good support . So please unban greninja

Ahh Shid again, I am tired speaking about these. Hey Dude The mon can swept teams! When it has correct moveset. When can it have correct moveset? When its carrying ice beam, gunk shot, u turn, low kick, surf, hp grass, hp fire, shadow sneak and spikes at same time. People say they don't know what kind of ninja they are facing and lose a mon against it in process of learning its Playstyle. That's not possible, It can't ohko any common walls even with super effective moves. Its quite easy to scout the Playstyle of a ninja but people are using it as a excuse to prove its broken or unhealthy for meta. Thanks for your opinion

Really solid argument

Sums it up entirely. Nothing else to be added

If all you're gonna do is post ss of gren vs it's check then idk how to take you seriously.You do realise that even if gren dies vs those the player can just spike and then your whole team is in trouble?

I love you for making these point Keita!!! Since you guys already banned ninja, it must mean to you that ninja ban is liked by most (%) of the community. Votings have been held before for several different things, I request one now for these aswell. No better way to decide if the community loved it or hated it. Please do it, for proving either one of our points for once and all

Read ghabra's whole post again ty

Please go back to what i posted and read again carefully , instead of reading only one part and nitpicking

Just a little comment about the petition. Even if you sign in 300 people, it actually means nothing as we do consider valid arguments and feedback and not signs. A sign is just the equivalent of a "+1", but the 30 good arguments are better than 4000 empty +1. We are not electing the President of a country and therefore are not looking for people signing anything. Our Council Leader will provide you explanation regarding the Greninja Ban (here, or in a separate thread), as soon as available.

The main thing that gren has it that he has no guaranteed switchin,you can switch in clef thinking it's gonna tank a hit to scout for moves and instead get hit by gunk shot. Same for chansey,if the gren turns out to be physical(although rare) then its a 3hko for it.The calc: 252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO At the end,i cant just stress enough the spikes part+unpredictability. Have a good day

Thanks for providing your lovely opinion. Have a Good day ^^

We always look for constructive criticism regarding decisions we make, but when those discussions start to be negative and toxic is when we must stop and because I have seen that you're insulting each other, I am going to close this topic and delete all negative comments/issue warnings punishments.

Sableye Sold