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You want to know why greninja was banned ? Aside from the [heck] ton of content in this thread that you choose to ignore , go read everything that was said by top ladder players who have gotten ladder consistently over years in the pvp council discord server ( i would be happy to provide the link https://discord.gg/sTh5Mqb3 ) . There are NUMEROUS THREADS on smogon , on youtube , on freaking pokecommunity on why greninja is banned . Sources are everywhere , all you need to do is go to this link :" www.google.com " , you click in the searchbar and you type "greninja ban" or "greninja ban smogon". Simple right? And yes , thoes who are laddering do get to decide for everyone .With all due respect , people who do not pvp , or people who are not experienced in pvp do not get to vote on the matters of pvp. I thought that was obvious enough. There's a reason why minors do not get to vote in elections. It's because they are not mature enough and do not understand enough to vote . This is the exact same case here , why do people who do not know anything about pvp get to decide for people who play for pvp? Want to be a grown up and get to vote on matters of pvp? Go get ladder. So instead of riling up like a bunch of kids and using cheap methods like starting a petition with a VERY low number of votes needed as a matter of fact (seeing that both servers combined average to about 1.5k players at any given time), Go get ladder. You think greninja does not deserve a ban and you want your voice to be heard? Then prove that your voice deserves to be heard and you guessed it , Go get ladder. Disclaimer : This is not directed towards @iammeetdpbecause he has proven himself and gotten ladder multiple times before , this is directed towards every godamn kid in here who keeps arguing nonsense while getting presented with facts and numbers.

I messaged 47 players (all Council members and as many top 25 players as I could find on Discord). 5 did not reply, while 8 out of 42 mentioned unbanning Greninja, as opposed to 29 for Mega Metagross. Is that not good enough for you? I think that says a lot about the qualifications of those who are signing this petition. If Walross (or Keita) allows me to mention their names, I also can.

Giving recent behaviour issues from many people here, some involving as well the thread owner, I am actually forced to close this thread as it's not leading anywhere in any case. Our Council Leader will make a post, with my help to make it clean and understandable for everyone, to explain the bans as soon as possible. Eventually we'll give chance to comment below the thread where stuff is explained, As for votes, regardless of how much you will ask, we won't make one cause votes, +1, petitions, polls and similar makes absolutely zero sense as I have explained before. To make you an example, If I would make a vote regarding if adding a 3x3 empty map where we gift Legendaries, more than 70% of the community will say yes, but does that mean the decision is the correct one? Absolutely not. What we consider are valid arguments supported by facts, evidences, calculation and in general data collected. In short, arguments that are actually proved/possible to be proved. Have a good day.

I find it funny how you made a petition and not a vote, just to hide the fact that not everyone likes greninja. Also, the issue with greninja isn't the fact people like it or not. It's that it's way too unhealthy. Yes, it is frail and it got a 4-move syndrom, but that's not enough to make it balanced. Frail? It's a revenge killer able to revenge kill most of the metagame, with a crazy 122 speed and a fairly good attack stat. 4-slots syndrom? It already got 4 STABs, not 4 moves, but 4 STABs all with different typings. The oppenent has no way to know what you're playing (except maybe U-turn), and having the STAB provide you more power than it would normal have: a hidden power fire STAB is the same as a flamethrower non-stab, just imagine. It got no real switch-in, only checks. While it should be a good way to beat offenses, it became able to beat all styles with some coverage. Clefable? Gunk Shot. Chansey? Low kick. Ferrothorn? HP fire and low kick. Heatran? Low kick and HPump. Tyranitar? Low kick. Alomomola? HP grass It puts so much pressure because the oppenent doesn't know what moves it carries, which means greninja is creating momentum like a mad man by provoking switches. It gives it lots of free turns to put spikes on and even toxic spikes. It's not because it was here for 2 years that it was balanced, it's that people got attached to it or enjoyed selling it for crazy prices, but that has nothing to do in PVP. Even if you compare with Smogon, PRO is mostly gen 6 ORAS, and Gren got banned at the very beggining of ORAS. Guess what, it was because of Low kick and Gunk Shot being added to its movepool. And guess what, these moves are available on PRO too. I don't like Mega-Metagross either, but the comparaison is way too far-fetched.

why is anyone even talking about unpredictability greninja only needs 4 moves to be beyond broken it should always be running 3 of those 4 moves any other set is hard trolling and makes greninja look balanced Greninja @ Life Orb Ability: Protean Timid Nature 252 SpA 252 Spe 4 Def - Ice Beam - Hydro Pump - Spikes - Extrasensory / Hidden Power Grass anything you need other coverage to hit you can just spikestack on, the only defoggers allowed to play the game are mantine, spdef mew, and empoleon (lol) i dont think i need to explain why stacking spikes on a mon with infinite offensive pressure is broken asf

Unban Greninja Here:- (Removed Petition as it was overruled) I Request an All Player accessible Voting for Final Ban/Unban Decision of Protean Greninja. Greninja has been a part of ranked pvp for almost 2 year iirc. It was never consider broken! Why now? Mega Metagross was kept unbanned for few reasons stated on discord! Let's compare Geninja with those reasons. Keep in mind that I love Mega Metagross and these is just to compare, not prove anything against mega Metagross. 1) It has yet to show signs of breaking metagame - I got no reason to believe that greninja is harmful for metagame, that thing is been around for 2 years! If it was harmful, shouldn't the metagame be dead by now 2) It has fair checks and counters- Lmao for real, you are going to unban Mega Metagross for that reason and not greninja. I do realize that greninja can be played smartly with protean, but that thing is fragile asf! It gets 2hko from moves it resist ( especilly since it requires - def/ sp.def nature because of mix run) It has to be run with life orb usally which just adds up to its fragility. 3) It has 4 moveslot syndrome- Its getting real at these point. You really believe that metagross has these syndrome and not GRENINJA. Players who fear it is because it can run mix or at its best hp fire. Surf, Ice beam, hp Fire, Spikes, low kick, gunk shot, u turn, extrasensory,hp grass... WOW no 4 move syndrome at all. To add up , they said it could run 7-8 moves that it would like to run ( metagross) but is limited to 4, WHAT ABOUT NINJA THAN??? you think it can cover entire meta in its 4 moves? 4) It doesn't yet restrict teambuilding to an unhealthy extent- I dont even know what he wanna prove with these point. Lets move onn 5) It can be dealt with all major playstyles- whats the current meta, chansey? ferrothrom?? clefable??? Playstyle- Rain? Trickroom?? Balanced Teams??? Greninja can handle all of them alone? with 4 moves?? OK I think if all these reasons can cause mega metagross to unban, than greninja deserves an unban aswell. Please sign the Petiton if you feel Greninja was banned unfairly, Thank you.

i got a bit missunderstanding. my bad

First of all just read these two messages again please. That should give you a better understanding about the whole idea about a vote for everyone. Other than that its no use to discuss any further as of now in my opinion since the Counil Leader will provide a full explanation regarding the Greninja ban as mentioned. Even though it has been discussed thoroughly already on the Council Discord. You can find full discussions and arguments for the ban there as well. Here is the link for the Council Discord: https://discord.gg/Pm24e5zr I would suggest everyone to read through all the posts regarding Greninja first or again and wait for the official statement from the Council Leader before trying to further discuss about it being unbanned since I feel like the whole discussion is not getting anywhere right now.

Silver Server Winrates: April: Landorus %56 , Keldeo %54 , Mega Loppuny %52, Heatran %52, Zapdos %52, ................................................................................................................. Greninja %48 March: Landorus %55, Zapdos %53, Mega Loppuny %53, Mega Venusaur %53, Heatran %53 .................................................................................................Greninja %48 February: Landorus %56, Zapdos %53, Keldeo %53, Garchomp %53, Mega Scizor %52 ..............................................................................................................Greninja %48 January: Landorus %54, Zapdos %52, Mega Scizor %52, Mega Loppuny %52, Heatran %52 .....................................................................................................Greninja %49 December 2020: Landorus %55, Zapdos %53, Mega Scizor %52, Mega Loppuny %52, ................................................................................................................Greninja %47 November 2020: Landorus %58, Tornadus %58, Heatran %55, Mega Scizor %52, Rotom %52, ................................................................................................ Greninja %47 October 2020: Tornadus %59, Landorus %58, Zapdos %56, Heatran %55, Scizor %53, ................................................................................................................ Greninja %47 September 2020: Landorus %59, Zapdos %57, Heatran %54, Skarmorty %53, Scizor %53, ......................................................................................................... Greninja %48 August 2020: Landorus %61, Heatran %57, Rotom-Wash %54,Skarmory %52, Garchomp %52,................................................................................................ Greninja %47 July 2020: Muk Alolan %57, Garchomp %55, Rotom-Wash %55, Heatran %54,................................................................................................................................. Greninja %47 June 2020: Muk Alolan %57, Garchomp %55, Heatran %55, Azumarill %54,........................................................................................................................................Greninja %47 May 2020: Muk Alolan %56, Azumarill %55, Heatran %54, Garchomp %54, Rotom Wash %53...................................................................................................Greninja %47 April 2020: Heatran %56, Muk Alolan %55, Rotom Wash %55, Excadrill %54, ....................................................................................................................................Greninja %46 March: 2020: Heatran %56, Ferrothorn %55, Rotom Wash %55, Garchomp %54, .............................................................................................................................Greninja %48 February 2020: Heatran %57, Rotom Wash %56, Garchomp %54, Bisharp %54, ................................................................................................................................Greninja %45 Greninja is broken and unhealthy for Ranked PvP as you can see in the table. On the other hand, Landorus, Zapdos, Heatran, Tornadus, Rotom Wash, Garchomp, Mega Scizor and Mega Loppunny all are so healty for Ranked PvP with at least %52 up to %61 winrates. Especially Landorus is overhealty. (Don't ban it too). So banning greninja with %45 up to &49 rating is very logical decision. (once reached %49 in a year, averagely %47 winrate) Now i can enjoy PvP more without Greninja, Thanks for banning it.

i hope will be banned ferro,chansey,blissey,skarmory and clefable next season. it makes more sense than the banning of greninja. OOO atk pokeee > gooo skarmory.. oooo spatk pokee comeback skarmory gooo chanseyyy nice match idea

wtb arena trap conkeldurr

UNROLL THE TADPOLE UNCLOG THE FROG UNLOAD THE TOAD UNINHIBIT THE RIBBIT UNSTICK THE LICK UNIMPRISON THE AMPHIBIAN UNMUTE THE NEWT UNBENCH THE KENCH PERMIT THE KERMIT DEFOG THE POLLIWOG "-1 tho"

S.O : 6M . Min Raise : 100k Duration : 24 hours once auction is started (first bid). Accepted payments : Reroll Tickets : 700k each (max 5). Coin Capsules : 400k each (max 5) Pokedollars. Buyer Must Come to Silver. By the rules, Auction is extended 1 hour after every bid . Ways to contact me: IGN: Viddy Discord: viddy#4962

The trade has been forced. 1.64m and 8 Coin Capsules were removed from @Mambo420 and added to @alfatrion1980s. The Charizard has been transferred to Mambo420. Apologies for the inconvenience. Will lock the thread as it's served its purpose and there's no further action to take. Take care.

How much marowak?

Nice raichu

@alfatrion1980s I'll take responsibility for forcefully trade the outcome of this auction. If someone pays the 5m insta, it's over, like in any other auction, same rules apply. You're not allowed to cancel because it has already been started prior to my intervention. Hope this clarified your doubts. Good luck.

There is no point to proving yourself if what i said does not apply to you, there is no reason for you to feel targeted . That was targeted towards people spouting nonsense who have no idea what the gravity of their words mean.

+1

Dude i like you but dissappointed that you don't understand the 'irony' here. I shared win rates to support you and obviously i'm against greninja ban. Landorus is way more broken pokemon than greninja, even anything else has %50 win rates are ''so-called'' broken comparing to greninja. Although people are complaining here or some youtubers crying about how broken(!) greninja is, datas proof that there are a lot of pokemons which has higher win rates on PRO. They banned greninja cause only smogon says so which is based for Pokemon Showdown and this game is not Pokemon Showdown, we dont play with perfect iv's or desired hidden powers. If you gonna ban a pokemon, PvP datas of PRO have to be used! not Smogon's suggestions for Pokemon Showdown...

well if infernape is that good just fking use it, and stop complaining about gren ban

Trolling not going to move this topic forward. Inferanepa will pick up kills even without protean. It is in a solid speed tier so theres no problem with that. Super effective moves will kill the opponent mon, especially since Infernape has high Atk stat.

i can agree with that way that only high rank players can do vote, so we dont have to hear someone with low rank crying without try harder for more. but still this is for all players in Pro and it have to clear why who when and how the ban discuss going on. and so other high rank player can join the discuss because its a decision for all. the sudden ban just tilting me just like wont look anyone else outside those choosen 47. maybe im not a pvper rn but im also doing thousands match in my past. and i know nobody know my past since i only play in yellow and i never tell anyone but maybe i will introduce myself if its needed to make me worthy participates my argument. not gonna joining the council, but i want to stay in neutral place

as i see so far, all banned pokemons ninja and megas uses tanks as target cant tank. why not anyone see or atleast imagine if your oppo not even got a single tanks, there only bulky sweeper and prio user. i dont anyone can answed what mega sableye can do to volcarona clefa etc, what mega mawile can do to landorus garchomp keldeo or anythihing bulky and faster. all i can see everyone uses tanks or stalls for victim example. and metagross as not wallbreaker not banned because it cant deals with any tanks that totally walls it. imagine what poke can kill all 700 other. but nobody use example when metagross facing something like landorus garchomp bisharp keldeo lopunny etc that they totally lose to metagross that not wallbreaker. i just dont get fairly example of it, everyone uses tanks and walls for main topic it cant handle it. i just cant find any justice even for example poke and about the decision. also why nobody use ninja example with lopunny or bee jolteon aerodactyl sceptile manetric etc, nnja cant even one shot tornadus till it use uturn momentum to switch with pursuiter or something rush ninja to run and free hit next poke

if you mean the ninja who oda used with mainly pivot uturn gunkshot icebeam, and naughty ninja jughead used to get ladder, well then yes i can agree they have limited brain, their limit was on top 1 back to back. that what not the point of this topic created, this is just how ninja got banned with fairly power and weakness, and even waiting perfectly wall like toxa when this poke already known for years and not everyone even use this poke or even know how to use even some confused what move to put untill they not use at all. and this not broken at all, its just good. if the user good

+1

The ban of Greninja is one of the most stupid moves I've ever seen on this game, and I didn't even use it.

So Greninja cant miss Gunk shot. Greninja cant miss Hydro Pump. Greninja cant miss any move that has less than 100% accuracy. If its misses, the same result, free kill. And its a miracle, but loses hp to hazards too.

@Rookiez Please clarify the starting offer. You have mentioned min bid and min raise 50k which can mean the same thing. Good luck in your auction.

+1

is it a must to defog infront greninja? can you just try to kill it first with volt switch pursuit or something faster or anything prio? also if you know there a greninja in your oppo's team, isnt it is just about what poke you will use to lead? yes azelf is lead, ninja spike can lead? or can azelf play like ninja style? azelf not deadly enough? i think so many defoger or spinner cant stay in front azelf

what the problem with spikes? is it the move that make ninja a broken pokemon? what about stealth rock diancie, azelf, accelgor? you can always removes hazard with spinner or defoger after kill the setter or just take same hazard to your opponent and rush them to defog it. unless you scared your team die because 1 spike and auto defog in same time when they have serperior/bisharp then i will not fight any argue about it. i dont get why hazard move for sweeper poke make it broken. just need to know the correct time to do and all good. 1 spike wont make all ur your die especially when you have levitate and flying in ur team, and that always. i bet it is always

i actually do want them, which means your statement is false, tapu koko would be very nice for me, i dont want to debate when you seem this upset, anger clouds judgement, stall hate = anger, so i'll just leave it and its been said that eventually all legendaries will want to be added, so it's just a matter of time. just because you don't want to have to adapt to a new metagame that involves tapus and toxapex, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either.

give it time, protean will be unbanned eventually. right now no, once we get stuff like tapus added, and other things that can actually tank hits, and cover many gren sets, then definitely unban, but for now, no torrent gren is already not banned, so you can still use it

if you means offensive mon in stall team, then i will say its hard to beat, but if its offensive mons in offensive team, something like ninja wont do more than kill 1, then its just about trade

Ok, so you think only thix exist and everything else is hard troll. With anything else, Greninja seems to be balanced. I saw that the main threat was Greninja with spikes. Than why not ban Protean Greninja with spikes? Just like we used to have the Gliscor +defog ban in the past. They could easily just ban that, but still didnt do it.

i can agree if greninja can do so many moves, it has great moves pool but that doesnt means make this poke broken. since it can dies even with not super effective moves. this poke also ironically can dies with his own life orb, or even fake out spam. in other side we only can use 4 moves in 1 poke and we have 6 slotted pokes in a team that can do check. and scarf ninja will not able to break any walls since most of them access protect or regen moves. and about new player uses their own moves without copying smogon or most used moves. i will call it this is how we live, we do experiments to beats our newest challange and threat. and for years ninja never debating in, everyone can accept its mobility so good but in other side this thing so fragile. and everyone use their ninja to makes their team more solid, they uses moves what the other poke cant learn in team, we should already can predict a little what it will do just by draft. atleast experienced pvpver know how to solve it. we can also beat non scarfed ninja with any scarf poke easily, if they used scarf on it we know what we will do next step. for example pursuit, double switch or something that make you can go ladder. and i still dont get why need next gen mons to come to make ninja unbanned since already so many megas and tricks can beat it

Why would you let the hazard up ? - To be honest, everyone doesn't want the hazards up for sure but we can't manage everything we wanted. I'd rather let it up than sac my win cons. Chansey not going to die to Low Kick, due to having Softboiled. - ofc it's not but not everyone can manage Chansey with full hp all the time. bad position = dead and as I stated chansey is not counter just check. take a hit from one low kick, forced to softboiled. easy bring physical attackers. Why we can't afford to make full hp chansey all the time? - because it's defensive pokemon, we always use it to check or take some sp.atk damage, alright it can softboiled to get full hp back but in some situation, you can't softboiled. such as you use chansey to check rotom, rotom volt out then switch in to any physical attacker, or set up sweeper. you're forced to switch out. Hp grass greninja is used in rank tbh, especially rich players or pvper who can afford. Yes, rotom can check it without hp.grass once or twice. it also took about 40% from extrasensory + in case gren holding life orb therefore you can make only one or two mistake to let rotom taking any damage plus gren also spike at rotom face when predicted volt out. Again to clarify, I considered in the situation under 6vs6 pokemons not 1vs1.

make kecleon great again!!

just mach punch (jk -1 stay in ur cage frog )

So we are trying to prove its "broken" and "breaking a healthy meta game" with smogon, which is obviously not healthy, it was never healthy, and never gonna be. Above me, facts were stated. They might be true. But theres like 2 words that makes it questionable. What if. Theres no what if in pokemon. Your opponent either have it or not, and you have to figure it out, whether it has it or not. Tho, Im not sure if you read mine or not, but I clearly stated that Ice Beam is 100% there, so you obviously not going to bring out a flying type like Zapdos. I also stated the fact that Chansey not going to die to Low Kick, due to having Softboiled. You gave us a calculation with spikes and stealth rocks up. Why would you let it set up hazards? I mean, every single team should have either a defogger or a rapid spinner. It can 2h ko Chansey after hazard damage, and high roll, probably the highest roll low kick. But lets be honest,what are the chances you get twice in a row the highest roll and your opponent doesnt use softboiled. Basicly 0. Hp grass is not used in ranked. Never saw one, and probably no one used it (sorry if somebody used it here). Rotom wash, even bold, will wall and check Greninja. Thats 100%, I saw it, I experienced it, and my Greninja was nowhere near bad. Regarding to Oda's answer, Mega Alakazam is not gonna get banned? Lets check it, probably the highest speed after Deoxys-speed form. High spatk. It can copy the enemy's ability, so bringing out on a sturdy pokemon will make it harder to play against it. We either get every Gen7 poke at the same time, or we dont need them. As I mentioned before, Toxapex will break this unhealthy meta even more. Of course, it can be killed with EQ. Just like how you can kill Greninja with max 2 hits, since its a class cannon. Tapus going to break the game even more. Rest of the gen7 pokemons are fine, of course Magearna is an exception. Greninja didnt made it unhealthy, in fact made it somehow healthier.

It’s true that greninja has been a part in the ranked pvp for almost 2 years but back in that time we still don’t have any pvp council yet. The council was created to discuss about any pvp topics because the staff might be not knowledgeable enough or need some pvpers’s opinion to discuss about pvp things and I believed the thread about greninja and aegislash were brought up to discuss since the council was created but they did not get banned for some reasons even if the council members agreed to ban it for long long time. Why they unbanned metagross ? Some people in council agree to ban it and some people did not therefore the council do their job to survey top 25 pvpers’s opinion in both server [in that time] last season which is in April, 2021. I guess, the conclusion of the survey [ both of council members and Top#25 on both servers] is unbanned the metagrossite. below is my opinion about metagross. We are going to talk about “How greninja broke healthy metagame” In my viewpoint. There are lots of thing that can check greninja such as chansey, ferrothorn, rotom etc. but none of them can counter it. Chansey : low kick is not even 2 hits k.o. but there is the chance to do that with stealth rock up and high roll [in case of full hp] and free to set up spike predicted chansey is to switch in as a checker then greninja can safely switch out. [stay in and get toxic, paralyzed never be a play to be honest]. Spike is the best support move for greninja to help any sweepers do their job easier. You know the move Defog and it’s exist in PRO ? Almost of the defoggers in PRO meta are weakness to greninja : [1] Rotom-wash : Hp. Grass, spike [predicted the volt switch] [2] Ice weakness defoggers : Zapdos, Tornadus, Skamory and gliscor etc… [ hydro or surf] They are all slower and weak to icebeam, surf therefore they can’t defog in front of greninja. Ferrothron : absolutely fine to check greninja with out hp.fire and low kick but as I said above free spike on predicted switch and don’t switch out and take leech or some damage are not the play. Clefable : Gunk shot doesn’t 1 hit k.o but it doesn’t good enough to check, tbh Conkeldurr : sneak with protean or risk to get k.o. with match punch when staying in water-dark type is not a good play. Greninja is fragile as you said but if you can use it properly you won’t let it take any damage, of course it’s fragile compared to metagross but there’re things can check and counter matagross imo. it’s not that hard to deal with [ sucker punch, scarfted magnezone forced to take damage from volt switch, some safe checks. Etc.] Grenninja’s movepool : of course every pokemon has 4 slot of moves but with its ability, I would say it’s too op because it’s stab every move and before you figure it out what set it is, your team might get ruined, of course we can check the move by double switching to check but if the hazards are up, I’m not preferred to take additional damage for free and it can learn u-turn, get a free momentum yeah ….. boom! It can be dealt with all major playstyles with only 4 moves : due to the flexible playstyle and movepool I think it is because as I said we can’t figure out what set it it. All I said above about the greninja, I’d said it causes the unhealthy meta. I considered those circumstances above as 6vs6 not 1vs1 because when you pvp, you have 6 pokemons as your opinion as well and to clarify this only my viewpoint why greninja should be ban. All of discussion banning pokemon I think the council made their decision with their respectable knowledge, some surveys with pvpers and they carefully consider about it, I believed. I understand you point, all of PRO players are not pvpers how pvpers can be representatives of all the people in PRO community. You might feel like your voice doesn’t be heard but It doesn’t mean they did not care about your voice. Some duty might need specific skills or people who are knowledgeable knowing pokemon in competitive way enough to get the best result of any discussion. They just “Put the right man in to the right job”. Additional : https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue44/ou-to-ubers That’s why I “-1” this thread. Respectfully,

In 2018, Eaty started to code Protean but froakie only available in Summer event. In 2019, staff made Lake Cave and make the Froakie available and people started to hunt at there until now. And Player use Greninja's move in PvP which are Water Shuriken(new player use it), Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Surf, Ice Beam, Hidden Power Fire, U-turn,Grass Knot (too less people use it), Shadow Sneak, Dark Pulse and Extrasensory because mega no exists yet and majority to kill Chansey,Ferrothorn and Conkeldurr. In 2020, PvP players already experienced with using Spike, Hidden Power grass and Ice Beam to make pressure almost of defogger as well as check. Even player don't have Hp Grass but player still can use U-turn to make momentum from switching. Even Scarf Protean Greninja also exists as well which is using Rock Slide, Gunk Shot, U-turn and Ice Beam. And now, we have Mega Evolution in game. It can pair with good Mega Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, Mega Medicham, Mega Alakazam, Mega Lopunny and almost of Offensive Pokemon such as Keldeo(popular pokemon), Serperior Contrary (to get Evasion boost from Defog if people want to Defog Spike), Bisharp Defiant(to get Attack boost from Defog if people want to Defog Spike). Why it banned? Due to unexpected move from Greninja Protean. And we not only fight one opponent which is only use Low Kick, Gunk Shot, Ice Beam and Extrasensory/Surf move but we can't predict what move will coming from other opponents. Before post this thread, try to some research due to lack of informations. And Greninja Protean will be unbanned after we get many generation 7 pokemon.

+1

I agree with iammeetdp. Greninja has been around for 2 years.what problem did it create now that it didnt created then. It has 4 move syndrome it has a limit of pokes to deal with at a time. And with new fast megas it is outspeeded as well.

I state it at the very beginning. +1 No one wants more that Greninja gets unbanned than me. I saw, read, and heard different opinions on both sides. The for side is that Greninja has unpredictable moveset beside Ice Beam, beacuse its always there. So this kick out all the facts, that things like Zapdos or Landorus can check it. We are left with things like Chansey/Ferrothorn/Clefable/Alomomola. Chansey checks Greninja's Low Kick, even with crit, its not gonna kill it. Softboiled, toxic easily walls it. So that is 1 counter. Ferrothorn runs 2 obvious move, and they are leech seed and stealth rocks. Every single Ferrothorn I faced had Protect, and they used to check it, whether Greninja has low kick or not. With hp fire, you cant do anything, basicly every special mon can suprise you with a super eff3ctive hidden power. Alomomola completely destroy Greninja, while Clefable survive Gunk Shot, while that move is rarely used. Now for the against part. Beside Greninja, I cant really name any other pokemon that can suprise you with moves, beacuse the rest of the meta mons pretty much have the same moveset, and you can easily play around it. Do we really want that? Do we really just want to click a move or switch and play pvp like workers in the factories? Or we want to like have tactics, that can suprise our enemy, or just simply outsmart them with different movesets. People say, that with adding Tapus and/or Toxapex, we might get back Greninja. Do we really want Toxapex? The most toxic stall mon ever created? Do we really want to see more disgusting combos with any defensive flying type? Are we prepared to face Tapu Koko in rain? Or just the Tapu+Lucha combo? Or we want to see scarfed Tapu Lele, with the terrain, that doesnt allow you to use priority moves? Or, we want the other fairy/steel Magearna? That after 1 or 2 shift gear, you are done, unless we have unaware Quagsire, beacuse Clefable gets destroyed. We are using Gen6 pokemon with Gen7 mechanics, and Greninja is banned. Talonflame's ability got nerfed a very long time ago, even tho, they say, we are using Gen6. I look at the ability, and its nerfed, while the change was made in Gen7.

Awesome +1

When you want to unban Greninja, you have to bring valid arguments. Especially when its already banned and you want to unban it. So, how do you do that? I can help you to tell you how to not do it. Are they compareable? If so, why? Maybe your statement is right, who knows?! I dont, because you just write it down without explanation. This is NOT an argument. Which? You may be right, you may not be right. Who knows when you keep your knowledge as a secret? Show us. As you probably already know some arguments about the 4 move syndrom, how can you abuse that when you see a Greninja in the opposing team? Because for Metagross it doesnt seem to be so hard *I heard* Nice to know. Why tho? Its again the "handle" question. Just explain how to deal with Greninja. How do you deal with it in a proper way. How does that prove anything? When I show you a screenshot where I kill a Mega Rayquaza with Ice Beam its also not op? When I say "why?" or so, it does not mean I disagree with you neccessarily, but if you have a point, you should argue in a right way. You can do 1: Cry and write random stuff or 2: Give arguments that staff has no other choice to unban it and has to apologize. Dont get me wrong, there are also ppl who wanted Gren to be banned and didint bring the top explanation. But the current status is that Gren is banned, and we (Gren ban likers) dont have to bring the arguments atm. You have to

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